25th December 2007

“My daughter, who is studying theology at university, informs me that modern liberal Biblical scholarship views the whole thing as a myth. She points out that two of the four gospels don't even mention the birth narrative, and adds that the two that do offer contradictory accounts. There is no question that the early Church was obsessed with the virginity of Mary. But this may have been based less on the historical record than a determination to make Jesus fit into Biblical prophecy.”

Peter Oborne

39 Responses to “25th December 2007”

  1. Thunder Says:

    * may have *

    Doubt is no more substantial than faith is in the physical…… They are both products of belief.

  2. Hypatia Says:

    Doubt is honest because it does not claim certainty when there is none.

    Faith is dishonest because it claims certainty when there is none. Worst still faith claims certainty when there is contradiction.

    “They are both products of belief.”

    Rubbish – just saying these things doesn’t make them true Thunder.

  3. Thunder Says:

    * Doubt is honest *

    Incorrect. Honesty is a condition of character.

    * because it does not claim certainty when there is none. *

    It doesn`t claim anything at all. Both doubt and faith can be mischaracterized.

    * Faith is dishonest *

    No. That is a judgment of character of those who excercise their faith instead of your doubt. It is part of your mischaracterizations about yourself and others.

    * because it claims certainty when there is none. *

    Expectation is not certainty. It is you that can`t get past the issue of Gods existence. People of faith are beyond that point to faith which is as I have been saying trust and expectation. That is the proper definition of faith. the dictionary entry of faith is not a definition but a description apparently origionated from someone who doesn`t have any and therefore misses the proper perspective of it.

    * Worst still faith claims certainty when there is contradiction. *

    Again faith and doubt can be couched any number of ways in the hands of those who propose either of them. You are promoting your own character against the character of people of faith.

    * Rubbish – just saying these things doesn’t make them true Thunder. *

    Don`t use my name you don`t know me. I`m not just saying anything. What I am saying is absolute fact. The addition of evidence to belief equates to knowledge. And that statment is true when you substitute the word belief with either the word doubt or faith.

  4. Renshia Says:

    “What I am saying is absolute fact.”

    Nothing you say is fact. You base everything on the delusion of a GOD. There for everything you say is tainted by this delusion. Nothing can be fact when everything is based in the delusion. You may add factual information and twist it to fit but it is still based in delusion, and corrupted.

  5. Renshia Says:

    “Doubt is no more substantial than faith is in the physical”

    They are both products of belief.

    Belief is or can be the product of either of these processes. From the doubter, once sufficient evidence is provided or the one accepting on faith by accepting regardless of whether or not the evidence is thought to be sufficient.

    This is how encouraging faith corrupts, it causes people to draw conclusions where there not is sufficient evidence. When there is insufficient evidence to support the beliefs, reason has to be abandoned to accept the beliefs as true.
    Once reason is abandoned anything can be accepted as true. This is why the people that come here that have accepted by faith cannot be reasoned with they have had to abandon it to have faith.

    Of course both are simply products of the mind.
    Doubt is simply the acknowledgment of insubstantial evidence to satisfy the doubters mind.

    Faith on the other hand is acceptance regardless of the fact when there is not sufficient evidence.

    Hence that the Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews Chapter 11 Verse 1

    It was said:
    “Doubt is no more substantial than faith”

    Faith is nothing.. so nothing is the substance of things hoped for and nothing is the evidence of things not seen.
    Religious people must abandon reason to fill in the gaps because they base their beliefs on nothing.

  6. Thunder Says:

    * You base everything on the delusion of a GOD. *

    My statement pertaining to faith and doubt is independant of any belief or non-belief in God. It is simply factual.

    * Nothing you say is fact. *

    Conversing with you produces diminishing returns.

    * There for everything you say is tainted by this delusion. *

    Again…… Faith and doubt are both products of belief. I don`t see any elements of religion in that statment. I DEFY you to find any to (ONCE AND FOR ALL) found your contentions.

    * You may add factual information *

    So in other words you overstated yourself at first when you said nothing I say is factual?

    * and twist it to fit but it is still based in delusion, and corrupted. *

    It can`t both be factual and be based in delusion at the same time. Sorry.

  7. Renshia Says:

    faith is not a product of belief you need to have faith to believe in the
    ridiculous story of Christianity because it cannot be established with reason.

    How can you believe something that has no proof. you use faith as a basis for the delusion. Faith has to come before belief, not as it’s product.

    Again what you say is meaningless because you are delusional.

    I never said there were no facts in what you present. I simply said that you use facts twisted to fit your delusion. Therefore they are no longer facts but a product of your delusion.

  8. Thunder Says:

    * Belief is or can be the product of either of these processes. *

    Cart before the horse. You can neither have faith or doubt without belief. It might be possible to have belief without either of those two elements. I don`t know I have not really thought about it yet.

    * From the doubter, once sufficient evidence is provided or the one accepting on faith by accepting regardless of whether or not the evidence is thought to be sufficient. *

    You`ll have to rephrase that. It isn`t clear what you mean.

    * This is how encouraging faith corrupts, it causes people to draw conclusions where there not is sufficient evidence. *

    That lacks clarity also.

    * When there is insufficient evidence to support the beliefs, reason has to be abandoned to accept the beliefs as true. *

    So when did you abandon your reason? You said yourself both (maybe) related to belief and I don`t see you indicate one or the other aspect that is subject to this tangential excursion. You believe there is no God in the absence of any proof. PROVE there is no God. You can`t and that is why you exhibit doubt and not knowledge.

    * This is why the people that come here that have accepted by faith cannot be reasoned with they have had to abandon it to have faith. *

    You really need to self-reflect on that statment.

    * Doubt is simply the acknowledgment of insubstantial evidence to satisfy the doubters mind. *

    Just as I said. You are contesting and backing into agreement. Though I know you will not ever admit that I am correct about anything.

    * Faith on the other hand is acceptance regardless of the fact when there is not sufficient evidence. *

    And you should consider that faith and doubt are yin and yang.

    * Faith is nothing.. *

    Wrong. It is a boolean expression…… If you add the same thing to either of them and the result is the same thing then they must be equivalent. A concept is not nothing and an attitude is not nothing.

  9. Thunder Says:

    * How can you believe something that has no proof. *

    Go back and read what I have already posted. You are taking us down another rabbit hole.

  10. Thunder Says:

    * I never said there were no facts in what you present. *

    YES, YOU DID! In the same post.

  11. Renshia Says:

    “Nothing you say is fact.”
    This is what I said.
    You said
    “I`m not just saying anything. What I am saying is absolute fact. ”

    I do not deny you can take facts and twist them.

    I am saying that what you say is only your opinion and it is an opinion based on delusion and because of this it is not “absolute fact”. This may be your reality, as pathetic as it may be. But who are you to declare your word “absolute fact”? You pathetic Christians see everything in a tunnel of delusion no wonder you…

    “You`ll have to rephrase that. It isn`t clear what you mean”
    “That lacks clarity also.”

    can not understand the simplest things. It is because you cannot understand there is more than your stupid empty delusions.

    You always try to turn things into a petty argument to avoid the root of the discussion. Either your to dense to understand anything except your own limited view or your so desperate to defend what can’t be defended you have to resort to childish antics to avoid the truth.

  12. Renshia Says:

    “If you add the same thing to either of them and the result is the same thing.”

    No!!! Doubt is the acceptance we know nothing. not an establishment of a belief or an opinion.
    Faith is the leap in faith that although I don’t have sufficient evidence. I believe it is true.

    Doubt doesn’t create an opinion or a belief. It just helps people to look at something and question the evidence. Sure a belief may be formed that is different than the one accepted when made in a leap made by faith but that opinion is only created based on sufficient evidence to warrant it. If there is not sufficient evidence then then a belief or opinion is not nessasarly made if the person may not know what to believe.

  13. Renshia Says:

    ” You really need to self-reflect on that statement”
    Really and what do you think I should find?

  14. Renshia Says:

    ” But this may have been based less on the historical record than a determination to make Jesus fit into Biblical prophecy.”

    Also she is not voicing doubt of the story here she is simply stating that the nativity story is more delusional leaps of faith to” make Jesus fit into Biblical prophecy” than it is based on “historical record”. Which is most likely true seeing that your own bible contradicts itself.

    Just another blatant twisting of reality to be able to substantiate faith in a god that provides no evidence on it’s own standing.

  15. Renshia Says:

    “Though I know you will not ever admit that I am correct about anything”

    Well I don’t know about that. I am sure you can be correct about things. I just think they need to be corroborated by sufficient evidence.

    I just do not accept you could possibly provide sufficient evidence that is reason based because of your delusional thinking.

    If you told me the total of 34 + 34 = 68, I would believe you. I could use my calculator to add it and I would have enough evidence to believe it was true. However, tell me that there is a GOD, well that you will need corroborating evidence of. Evidence that can be verified.

  16. Renshia Says:

    ” You believe there is no God in the absence of any proof. PROVE there is no God. You can`t and that is why you exhibit doubt and not knowledge.”

    The proof that I present is simply this:
    That there is no evidence in any form from a trustworthy source that can truly bear witness to the existence of a GOD.

    so the slate is clean. There is no evidence that can confirm that one does not exist and there is none to prove there is, (meeting my required standard of quantifiable evidence).
    So being that I have nothing, I must look at the evidence and conclude that being that there is nothing, reason stands to show that nothing equals nothing and therefore to be reasonable it must be concluded that there cannot be a GOD.

    Now you prove with nothing that there is.

  17. GJK Says:

    “must be concluded that there cannot be a GOD.”

    How would such a complex entity as god come into existence anyway?

    Creationists make erroneous arguments about irreducible complexity then accept the spontaneous existence of god without any hint of irony!

  18. Thunder Says:

    * How would such a complex entity as god come into existence anyway? *

    I already advanced an idea about that (not a belief just a speculation).

    * Creationists make erroneous arguments *

    Prove they are erroneous!

    * irreducible complexity *

    All intelligent design proponents are creationists but not all creationists are intelligent design proponents.

    * then accept the spontaneous existence of god without any hint of irony! *

    All throughout scripture there are hints of God being extraneous to time. One of his names is the eternal. How does spontaneous come into it? You limit perspective to being dependant on time.

  19. Renshia Says:

    “Prove they are erroneous!”
    Well lets start with the age of the planet.
    Creationist claim the earth is just over 6000 years old, yet as we examine the planet it is found to be millions of years old.

    Creationist claim that the world was flooded and that two off all animals were aboard a boat made by Noah. They even state they have the dimensions of said boat. However if they took the size of the boat and the size required to house all those animals there is no way that they would fit.

    Now I will admit I do not have the boat, but if you look at the facts presented within the creationist theory and the physical facts. The errors can only be overlooked if you use Faith…lol

  20. Renshia Says:

    “Creationists make erroneous arguments about irreducible complexity then accept the spontaneous existence of god without any hint of irony!”

    This is derived from the lack of foundation to what they say. If you are telling a fairytale and there is no base of truth to it, it can be twisted to fit the story, no matter what that story is. They do not need facts that mesh with each other because they twist to fit whatever they want. and you can always fall back on the awesomeness of god and declare “who can know the mind of GOD. Well obviously no one…..

  21. Thunder Says:

    * Now you prove with nothing that there is. *

    Try to digest this! I have not EVER proposed to prove God to you! I have in fact said that such proof as you seek is impossible. That does not mean proof doesn`t exist it means you stack the deck in preference to your predetermined misunderstanding.

    * The proof that I present is simply this: *

    ‘NO EVIDENCE’ IS NOT PROOF. ‘NO EVIDENCE’ is inconclusive. Contest that!

    * there is no evidence in any form from a trustworthy source that can truly bear witness to the existence of a GOD. *

    God can bear witness of himself. That is why I do not propose to prove him. However, I am within my prerogative to bear witness of him. If I were lying would I stop short of claiming to have seen him or heard him speak to me? I go as far as my personal experience allows. And if you argue that I shy away from denigration I submit to you that if that were the case I would not be on this board.

    * (meeting my required standard of quantifiable evidence). *

    You don`t require evidence you require a preselected outcome. You already have the outcome you want which is God not being in your life. (Really he is but you don`t recognize him).

    * However, tell me that there is a GOD, well that you will need corroborating evidence of. *

    I don`t need corroboration to give witness. Corroboration is your feigned requisit. Inform you how you may corroborate it and your ears being closed becomes evident.

    * Evidence that can be verified. *

    You claim a lack of verity but you don`t seek to obtain what is your responsibility to learn.

    * I just do not accept you could possibly provide sufficient evidence that is reason based because of your delusional thinking. *

    CIP your ears are closed. I have not ever asked you to accept the possibility that I can provide evidence. I said and say go look for God yourself. Until you seek to find him yourself you are exactly where you belong (IN THE DARK!)

  22. Thunder Says:

    * Well lets start with the age of the planet. *

    Why? Where in scripture are we informed how old the planet is? It doesn`t. Scripture is the material with which christianity is constructed. Christianity is not constructed by just whoever claims to be one.

    * Creationist claim the earth is just over 6000 years old *

    Not all of them do.

    * yet as we examine the planet it is found to be millions of years old. *

    Between 4.6 and 6 billion.

    * Creationist claim that the world was flooded and that two off all animals were aboard a boat made by Noah. *

    Actually there are two accounts one says two of every animal and the other says two of every unclean animal and 7 of every clean animal. And this has nothing to do with creation.

    * They even state they have the dimensions of said boat. *

    Yep.

    * . However if they took the size of the boat and the size required to house all those animals there is no way that they would fit. *

    Let`s see 150 ft. by 450 ft. x 3 levels omit the fish (because they can swim and breath) and the birds because they obviously are accounted for in cubic and not square dimention that is 202,500 sq. ft. One acre is 43,560 sq. ft. so there was 4.65 acres in the ark. That is a little more than four fooball fields. And the time is one third to three fifths of a year….. no doubt you will argue provision which would probably also be accounted for in cubic measure…… logistics wouldn`t exactly be my problem with that story if I were a doubter.

    * The errors can only be overlooked if you use Faith…lol *

    I said prove they are erroneous. You can`t even distinquish the difference between creationism and the story of the ark which in scripture we are told the human generation between noah and the ark and adam and eve.

  23. Thunder Says:

    * Which is most likely true seeing *

    Blatant unwarranted transmutation of an uncertainty to verity.

    * that your own bible contradicts itself. *

    No. It does not. It is only an abiding need to dismiss without discredit the scriptures which has you claiming a contradiction you can`t point to. I let a quote pass without contention because the quoter made reference to the pope as if the pope is indicative of christian thought; I considered that a more pressing thing to correct. But, as long as the pope did not infer in his reflections that jesus was born in a house instead of a stable then he was not wrong to represent that Jesus didn`t remain in that stable all of his life.

  24. Thunder Says:

    * than it is based on “historical record”. *

    What historical record? The dynamics are suppose to be a contradiction in the biblical record.

  25. Thunder Says:

    * You pathetic Christians see everything in a tunnel of delusion no wonder you can not understand the simplest things.*

    I have no inability to understand. It is your sentence structure which is incoherent.

  26. Thunder Says:

    * It is because you cannot understand there is more than your stupid empty delusions. *

    What more do you bring than being ignorant and pissy? What facts other than to promote your supposition about my lucidity have you proffered? The stupidest moron can be pissy. You have to bring something else to convince me you are not that stupid moron!

  27. Thunder Says:

    Correction. a cubit is 1.5 ft approximately. The biblical figures are 300x50x30. So my figures should be 450x75x3 which equals half the area that I first calculated. Not that I think any of you would have caught it.

  28. Thunder Says:

    * Faith is the leap in faith that although I don’t have sufficient evidence. I believe it is true. *

    You learn in the second and third grade that you cannot define a word using that word. Faith is a response to a belief. So also doubt is a response to a belief. Sorry you don`t agree but that is the truth.

    * Doubt is the acceptance we know nothing. *

    Do you want me to agree with you saying you know nothing? The idea that we can never know anything is Heisenburghs uncertainty principle and it is a scientific contrival to basically say oops (that caught me off guard).

    * Doubt doesn’t create an opinion or a belief. *

    Never suggested it did.

    * It just helps people to look at something and question the evidence. *

    Huh? Your doubt is an aid to help you rectify your understanding of God? Your doubt is self-permission to close your eyes not open them.

  29. Renshia Says:

    “God can bear witness of himself.”
    Then why doesn’t he?

    “I am within my prerogative to bear witness of him”
    No it may be within your prerogative to voice your opinion but you can not bear witness, because there is nothing to witness. With no proof, how can you bear witness? all you can do is offer up your version of your delusion.You don`t require evidence you require a preselected outcome.

    “You don`t require evidence”
    No evidence would be enough.. if there was any.

    “you require a preselected outcome.”
    When I began my search for truth, I was in no way looking for a “preselected outcome” I was looking for truth. Her you go judging me of my intentions, when you know me not. Your such a hypocrite.

    “You already have the outcome you want which is God not being in your life.”
    Yes you are correct, I do have the outcome that I want. Simply put it is peace happiness, joy, honesty, truth, integrity and a love for life.
    It just so happens I needed to strip all the baggage that prevented those things from manifesting themselves and within this stripping the delusions of religion were part of it. I did not seek to invalidate GOD. It invalidated itself by the fruit it bears.

    “I don`t need corroboration to give witness”
    With no evidence what do you give witness to? Your opinion. Bah!!!
    And this we are to accept you state “absolute fact”
    blah blah blah.

    “You claim a lack of verity but you don`t seek to obtain what is your responsibility to learn.”
    But I did take this responsibility, and i DID LEARN, I LEARNED IT WAS ALL A LIE HELD TOGETHER BY DELUSIONS AND EXCUSES.
    It is a good thing you got faith, you need it in place of reason.

  30. Renshia Says:

    “NO EVIDENCE’ IS NOT PROOF.”
    It is proof enough for me.
    Maybe you can look at nothing and see something… but thats your delusion not mine. I choose to see reality as it is.
    But it’s your story thunder you tell it any way you want… Just doesn’t mean we have to agree.

  31. Renshia Says:

    “* I just do not accept you could possibly provide sufficient evidence that is reason based because of your delusional thinking. *”
    “I have not ever asked you to accept the possibility that I can provide evidence. I said and say go look for God yourself.”

    Although Evidence of god is part of this I was actually generalizing about everything you say in things related to religion, Christianity or the spiritual.

  32. Renshia Says:

    “Do you want me to agree with you saying you know nothing?”
    I did not say that ..
    I said “Doubt is the acceptance we know nothing.” or explaining it in a simpler maner for those trying to see through their fog of delusion…..
    the acceptance of the fact there is not enough information to make an informative decision.

    “The idea that we can never know anything is Heisenburghs uncertainty principle and it is a scientific contrival to basically say oops (that caught me off guard).”
    Yeah and your point is….

  33. Renshia Says:

    “I have not EVER proposed to prove God to you’
    I never said you did.
    You asked me to prove he doesn’t. I laid out the fact that due to no evidence to the contrary, it was sufficient to show.. nothing.
    Now I simply wanted to offer you the opportunity to prove otherwise.
    This is the second opportunity I have tried to offer to you to proclaim your truth, but it would seem you would rather argue semantics than to present evidence of your faith..
    and it would seem you have squandered the opportunity again.

  34. Thunder Says:

    * I did not say that .. *

    You said ‘we’ but I will not be included in your reflection of your own life experience (or lack thereof).

    * I said *

    It is you that does not have a handle on what you have said. When I don`t perceive your meaning you run me down for asking you to clarify yourself.

    * in a simpler maner for those trying to see through their fog of delusion….. *

    I`m going to answer your current posts but for abuses such as this this discusson is ending now and I will once again start ignoring you. I don`t think you are half the intellect you think you are.

    * the acceptance of the fact there is not enough information to make an informative decision. *

    You are not accepting that supposition as fact. You are dictating it as fact. You have closed to any injection of input. You like your status quo.

    * Although Evidence of god is part of this *

    Says you. We don`t need 45 posts in a million different directions to resolve the issue of what is faith and doubt. I made two statments. One a clarification of the other. Faith and doubt are products of belief. The clarification was that faith and doubt are reactions to belief. Equivalent statments. Neither of which has anything to do with religion. Between you and me is definately a dogmatism and it isn`t me. You are the one rattling on about the virtue of doubt and the villainy of faith.

    * I was actually generalizing about everything you say in things related to religion, Christianity or the spiritual. *

    You weren`t generalizing enough.

  35. Thunder Says:

    * I never said you did. *

    You resurrect a point that has copiously been rebutted.

    * You asked me to prove he doesn’t. *

    As a proof of the impossibility of the position you have adopted. I KNOW you can`t prove there is no God.

    * I laid out the fact that due to no evidence to the contrary, it was sufficient to show.. nothing. *

    That is a data mismatch error. I say you can`t add 3 oranges and 5 apples and your answer is sure you can and you get fruit juice. Funny maybe but it is a departure from the issue. ‘No evidence’ is inconclusive. You even say that when you say ‘we don`t know anything’. You are vasilating between two different positions. You clearly contradict yourself.

    * Now I simply wanted to offer you the opportunity to prove otherwise. *

    No. As I said….. you are resurrecting a point that has already been addressed.

    * This is the second opportunity I have tried to offer to you to proclaim your truth *

    That`s dishonest. You are a heckler; not a debater. You pretend to call for evidence but you don`t really know what manifestation (image) to expect. You hold only tactility as substantial (but only for any discussion of God). God is a spirit and that is NO equivocation. It has always been that ideology.

    * but it would seem you would rather argue semantics *

    I would rather you listen so I don`t have to repeat myself a hundred times. Or better still I would rather you did not respond to me. It shouldn`t be so hard to hold a conversation.

    * than to present evidence of your faith.. *

    My being here is proof of my faith. As I said before…. proof of what I believe is vested in Gods reaction to you making an (HONEST) personal ovature.

    * it would seem you have squandered the opportunity again. *

    Attempting to reason with you is squandering time.

  36. Renshia Says:

    ow…lol

  37. Renshia Says:

    “You are vasilating between two different positions.”
    Of coarse, thats what doubt is questioning.

  38. Thunder Says:

    * Of coarse, thats what doubt is questioning. *

    Not even close to what I refer to. I`m talking about you arguing for convenience sake that you are unsure but then saying you sought the truth and found it conclusively against what you say you couldn`t be sure of. It is a contradictory position and is indicative of a differential between what you exude and what you claim to have found after dislodging yourself of religion. Namely you claim honesty and truth, self-contradiction contradicts that.

  39. Thunder Says:

    ‘Renshia….’ ,

    Iggy. Come back with something other than your bigotry.