15th January 2008

“If there is a God, he is a malign thug.”

Mark Twain1835 – 1910

20 Responses to “15th January 2008”

  1. Thunder Says:

    * If there is a God, he is a malign thug. *

    Makes no sense. Look at peoples misdeeds and blame it on God and then deride those people for blaming their actions on something else. Atheists are a blivit of hypocrisies.

  2. Terence Meaden Says:

    Know your bible:

    God the Mass Murderer

    Murders Committed or Ordered by God

    Everyone except Noah and his family (Genesis 7:23)
    3000 men (Exodus 32:27, 8)
    14,700 died (Numbers 16:49)
    Everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah (Gen. 19:24)
    All the first-born in Egypt (Exodus 12:29)
    10,000 Perizzites and Canaanites (Judges 1:4)
    10,000 Moabites (Judges 1:4)
    120,000 Midianites (Judges 8:10)
    50,070 people of Bethshemesh ( I Samuel 6:19)
    22,000 Syrians (II Samuel 8:5)
    40,000+ Syrians (II Samuel 10:18)
    70,000 people (II Samuel 24:15)
    Every man in Edom (I Kings 11:15)
    185,000 Assyrians in their sleep (II Kings 19:35)
    500,000 men of Israel (II Chronicles 13:16-20)
    20,000 Edomites (II Chronicles 28:11,12)
    120,000 Judeans in one day (II Chronicles 28:5,6)
    75,500+ people (Esther 9:12-14)
    100,000 Syrian footmen (I Kings 20: 28-3)
    Etc, etc, etc.
    . . . . . . . . .

  3. Terence Meaden Says:

    “Our Bible reveals to us the character of our god with minute and remorseless exactness… It is perhaps the most damnatory biography that exists in print anywhere. It makes Nero an angel of light and leading by contrast.” Mark Twain. Reflections on Religion. 1906

  4. Thunder Says:

    * Know your bible *

    I know it better than you do.

  5. Thunder Says:

    * Our Bible reveals to us the character of our god with minute and remorseless exactness… *

    True.

    * It is perhaps the most damnatory biography that exists in print anywhere. *

    (Auto-) Biographical. Damatory? By whose law????? Your law? What law allows you to impose judgment without trial? Motive opportunity and means not to mention proving a crime has been comitted. Context is not your concern and by default reason is not your concern.

    * It makes Nero an angel of light and leading by contrast. *

    Don`t understand his allusion to leading in that but I suspect it is just a filler to complete a formal conversational construction. Iae…. I would rather be submissive in the hands of God then in the hands of nero in any circumstance. You have the option of a different opinion.

    * Mark Twain *

    Was his own worst critic as well as his best fan.

  6. Terence Meaden Says:

    * * Know your bible **

    *I know it better than you do.*

    You have evaded the point.

    Last week you said that you believe the scriptures. If, by this, you meant the bible, you might accept that the statistics above are horrendous.

    But in believing the scriptures, do you believe the bible or not?

  7. Thunder Says:

    * You have evaded the point. *

    Read the next post.

    * Last week you said that you believe the scriptures. *

    Hadn`t done anything to contradict that.

    * If, by this, you meant the bible, you might accept that the statistics above are horrendous. *

    I don`t accept anything you say. I think it is evident that your positions are not based on any exhaustive search for a valid construction.

  8. Terence Meaden Says:

    It seems that you are saying that you do not wish to discuss the biblical horrors referenced above.

    *I don`t accept anything you say.*

    It is not me inventing this. I am repeating what the bible is saying; and you are dodging the issue. Surely you accept what the bible says.

    There are plenty more horrors, and you must know them well. Here’s Thomas Paine, 1795:

    “The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion. It has been the most destructive to the peace of man since man began to exist.
    Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses, who gave an order to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers and then rape the daughters. One of the most horrible atrocities found in the literature of any nation. I would not dishonor my Creator’s name by attaching it to this filthy book.” Thomas Paine. The Age of Reason. October 25, 1795]

  9. Thunder Says:

    * It seems that you are saying that you do not wish to discuss the biblical horrors referenced above. *

    And what was the result of your looking up the valley of hinnom? Or did you just bow out of that discussion(?)? When I attempted to reference the bible I was told not to bother. I guess you feel that only coroners are fit to weild scalples.

    * It is not me inventing this. *

    It is you removing a quote (verse) from its elements and attempting to elicit a backdrop from my creativity. The only problem with that is that I am not a member of your rah rah club. I already know the backdrop within which these events reside (took place). You can`t elicit from me a condition of judgment without particulars. A FOOL decides (judges) a matter before he hears (tries [as in trial]) it.

    * I am repeating what the bible is saying *

    You are misquoting by omission. There are two sides (truely most of the time three) to every story. Farbeit from you to get hung up on mitigation, ehhhy.

    * you are dodging the issue *

    My issue here has always been your (atheists) self-mischaracterization. I`ve been on this board for 2 1/2 months approximately and to me the conversation hasn`t even started yet.

    * Surely you accept what the bible says. *

    I just told you…. I don`t accept what you say. You are STILL in pretense. I`ll give you an example. When busing was initiated in North Carolina, I was three months in a school less than a mile from my house. I ended up spending 45 min-1hr on a bus going to a school where I was a minority. So my dad pulled me from public school and enrolled me in St. Anns catholic school. In this school they had a mandatory bible study (reasonable for a perochial school). When I got into that class the first thing I noticed and I asked them about it, was that there were no bibles. Do you get that? A bible class with no bibles. THAT`S pretentious (and indoctrinating). That was the 4th grade and I already had my wits about me.

    * There are plenty more horrors, and you must know them well. *

    Know them well? No I was not there. Horror, vindication, justice, mitigation, (preemptions)….. are matters of perspective.

    * Thomas Paine *

    Can you not think for yourself?

  10. Thunder Says:

    * Thunder done got hisself PWNd. *

    Shut up fool! The discussion can`t get past the damn stereotypes.

  11. Thunder Says:

    Sorry.

  12. Roland Says:

    The whole story is stupid. A snake that had no problems with its jaws, supra and lower lips to talk existed??? WHAT??? He puts all of these variables together for disaster to happen. What was god thinking?? Then he blames them for what HE did? He didn’t satisfy so he extended the blame on us? Didn’t he know EVERYTHING before hand? Wasn’t he everywhere all the time? Who buys this stuff? Then because of what our parents did we get punished. How screwed up is this guy/girl/thing? I imagine a country where you get called to curt because your father or mother committed a crime.

    Eventually god, no his son, I think… well he talks about himself in 3rd person -then comes this hippie and commits an elaborate suicide, blames us the Jewish, then promises to save them. It is also alleged that no one, no matter how righteous could enter heaven before the crucifixion. You can only be with god by accepting Jesus, being good to each other is irrelevant. If you believe in MC JC and you repent from your sins you are in heaven and Gandhi is in hell.

    Guys, imagination is good. I encourage fantasy as well, just don’t live in it.

  13. Terence Meaden Says:

    Yes the bible tells us about a talking snake and a talking donkey (Balaam’s ass), so being in the scriptures some people say that these things really happened because they really believe the scriptures.

  14. Thunder Says:

    * Yes the bible tells us about a talking snake and a talking donkey (Balaam’s ass), so being in the scriptures some people say that these things really happened because they really believe the scriptures. *

    I believe they really happened.

  15. Thunder Says:

    * Inarguably right. *

    Let`s see…… God made man, woman, a tree and a snake and you characterize that as from an evil nature. Sounds arguable to me.

    * Snake gets woman and man to eat the fruit. *

    You missed a step that invalidates your malicious mascinations. Your position is that God should have preempted the serpent (the shining one). The step you omit was his preemption. You blame the only one who played no role in the fall. But STILL GOD took the responsibility you say belongs to him and faced death and you say it makes no sense. Atheists are fickle (female dogs).

    * Punishment for this “crime”? Eternal. *

    Which one of the punishments were eternal?

    * Cast from the garden. Painful childbirth. Tilling the soil. Mortality. *

    Which one is eternal according to the scriptures? You atheists are the ones who say death is forever.

    * Work of a “loving god”? I don’t think so. *

    So these things can only be said to accentuate the value and gradeur of life if there is no God?

    * Then we have to wait, what, 4000 years for god to get himself born to a virgin so he can sacrifice himself to take this “sin” off all our backs *

    When were you born. (ret.)

    * only if we kiss his ass *

    Kiss the son least you perish out of the way when his anger is kindled but a little against you. I wouldn`t suggest that anatomical area though.

    * “accept Jesus”, like that means anything. *

    There is no such thing as the sinners prayer. That is a denominational construction. Denomination means divided by name. The very meaning suggests separation and not unity. And unless that throws you a little that I bring that up….. The phrase ‘accept Jesus’ is the nominal introduction to being proselytized using the sinners prayer. The phrase is not scriptural that I have ever seen.

  16. Thunder Says:

    * Wow. Thunder – I apologize if I upset you earlier. *

    Don`t take this the wrong way but you don`t have to patronize me. (I`m not saying you are it is very likely you are sincere). I was a little terse and I apologize for that.

    * You’re beliefs are facinating to me though I cannot possibly concieve of them being true. *

    You atheists believe life springs from not-life but refuse to venture that what was once alive can be alive again. That is straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel. Animals are dust that eats and breaths and beys and feels. Why should you hold something so unsurmountable to little flaps of skin????? When your priests of science find dormant strands of dna pertaining to speech and turn them on them you will believe and forget that it has already been done.

  17. Terence Meaden Says:

    * *Yes the bible tells us about a talking snake and a talking donkey . . . **

    * I believe they really happened*

    Thank you.
    The snake was talking in the Garden of Eden. Do you believe that in the scriptures, the story of Adam, Eve and the serpent records an event that really happened, rather than being a allegory?

  18. Thunder Says:

    * Thank you. *

    Stop pretending.

    * The snake was talking in the Garden of Eden. *

    the SERPENT ( the shining one: Lucifer). It is the first biblical record of possession. I believe the scriptures. I think (KNOW) that you lack a properly constructed mental picture. You are discounting what the bible is predominantly based on (metaphysical). You also disallow the logical necessity of simplicity of language and the compelling applicability of that simplicity to overlay more complex understanding. YOU DON`T CARE TO GET IT RIGHT!

    * Do you believe that in the scriptures, the story of Adam, Eve and the serpent records an event that really happened, rather than being a allegory? *

    I don`t know how to get any plainer. I believe scripture. It is, however, a mistake on your part to attempt to equate what I believe with your understanding of scripture. You don`t have any understanding of it. It isn`t just a matter of committing it to memory as you suppose.

    * rather than being a allegory? *

    The only way to hold adam and eve allegorical is to hold everything in scripture made up which you do anyway but….. it contains complete geneology to combat your ascertion.

  19. Thunder Says:

    * Our best estimate is that the universe is almost 14 billion years old. *

    Still a straw man argument. You don`t know my position and you only think you know the biblical record to which you are attempting to proffer rebuttal. Besides arriving at the best estimate between 19-13 billion is a matter of guessing.

    * We know from geology (and astronomy and physics and chemistry) that the earth is about 4.54 billion years old. *

    See above reply. And your parenthetical is exaggeration beyond exhaustion.

    * We know from paleontology that the dinosaurs died in a mass extinction triggered by an asteroid strike 65 million years ago. *

    Do NOT overstate the validity of your suppositions. Not all scientist believe an asteroid was the catalyst.

    * Our genus, Homo, is at least 2 million years old. We know from archeology and anthropology that modern behavior began some 50,000 years ago. We built the first permanent settlements 10,000 years ago. *

    See the first response.

    * These estimates are the lifes work of thousands of the best minds our species has yet produced *

    Reverential statment. It is incredible how you atheists miss the fact of your own religious tendancies. Who told you these are the best minds? Must the best minds be connected to science? You guys have your own blind spot.

    * What kind of god would desire to trick us into thinking that all we know via science is wrong? *

    An errant depiction from someone who doesn`t have their own clue about him.

  20. Thunder Says:

    * much more compelling than the edited and re-edited and badly translated and reinterpreted scriblings of a group of iron age mystics. *

    Just as the rest of your post this is an excercise in over ephasis.

    * The writings of the bible pre-date punctuation. *

    Irrelevant.

    * Many parts were simply removed if they didn’t fit the zeitgeist of the times. *

    Another coroner. What makes scripture work is the spirit.

    * I think it demonstrates a lack of appreciation for how far we’ve come not to take seriously our progress or to give credit to the mechanism that has made it possible – science. *

    Reverential. And I don`t think we have come so far. It is evident why God concentrated on the sociological aspect and left the scientific aspects to our curiosity.

    * Anyone that has been saved from death by taking an aspirin when they have the flu is reaping the benefits of science. *

    And at the very same time they are benefitting by sociological concerns of others. More directly the benefits of aspirin were known before science industrialized it.

    * Yes, people used to (and still do, in poor countries) die from fever. *

    Superfluous.

    * It’s time to put aside the childish myths of the infancy of our species. *

    Who died and elected you anything?