29th January 2008

“Science has rather successfully provided verifiable and reliable explanations for most of the physical, physiological and psychological phenomena which troubled our ancestors and caused them to invent a multiplicity of gods.”

Alan J. Sangster

28 Responses to “29th January 2008”

  1. Terence Meaden Says:

    “It is impossible for anyone to dispel his fear over the most important matters, if he does not know what is the nature of the universe but instead suspects something that happens in myth. Therefore, it is impossible to obtain unmitigated pleasure without natural science.” Epicurus

  2. Terence Meaden Says:

    Mustafa Kemal Atatürk (1881 – 1938; president of Turkey 1923-1938):
    “I have no religion, and at times I wish all religions at the bottom of the sea. He is a weak ruler who needs religion to uphold his government; it is as if he would catch his people in a trap. My people are going to learn the principles of democracy, the dictates of truth and the teachings of science. Superstition must go. Let them worship as they will; every man can follow his own conscience, provided it does not interfere with sane reason or bid him against the liberty of his fellow-men.”

  3. Critic Says:

    …every man can follow his own conscience, provided it does not interfere with sane reason or bid him against the liberty of his fellow-men.

    Therein lies the problem. The religious, by definition, are interfering with sane reason. Further, they cannot leave others alone. They must spread their mind virus to validate their choice of religion.

  4. Renshia Says:

    ” “Science has rather successfully provided verifiable and reliable explanations”

    The problem here is that, main stream society does not want “verifiable and reliable explanations”.
    Society teaches that if you have a problem, blaim someone else for it and look to others for answers.
    Society doesn’t teach being responsible for your action, it is always looking for a quick fix. (Ie.Take a pill, get therapy, go to A.A.)

    It only stands that if you are not taught to accept responsibility, it is way easier to look to some kind of outside source for validation, and to also use it as a scape goat to justify your actions. I think this is why religion is so comforting. I allows people to look to another source for strength and provides the perfect excuse for failure. This way you do not have to accept responsibility for being a shitty person you can just fall back into, “well I am only a poor wretched sinner.”

  5. Chris Says:

    Renshia – well put. I didn’t have any education in Logic until my 2nd year of college. I could have used it sooner. If we fail to teach kids how to think critically and to explore questions with logic then we leave them easy prey for the priest, the pastor, the mullah, the guru, the rabbi. We can be a lazy species and these predators have sharp claws to catch the unwary or uneducated. The memes they promote have also been groomed and polished by natural selection so none should doubt their virulence.

    Logic and reasoning ought to be a school subject taught in elementary school. I’ve started with my 2nd grader. It’s amazing how fast they get it. “Dad, that doesn’t make ANY sense…”

  6. Nefari Says:

    Chris,
    It’s deplorable that formal logic is not an educational requirement in the US. A condition that echoes throughout the culture. As a remedy, we too are learning logic after school. I waited until they were doing subtraction and gave it a shot. To my surprise they were able to catch onto truth tables immediately. No reason this can’t be in the curriculum.

  7. Thunder Says:

    * It’s deplorable that formal logic is not an educational requirement in the US. *

    I say that every time I talk to an atheist. They don`t seem to know the difference between an opinion and a fact.

  8. Renshia Says:

    “If we fail to teach kids how to think critically and to explore questions with logic then we leave them easy prey”

    This is so true.
    Thunder himself was sucked into the religious dogma at age 7. It can only be that he was never taught to think critically but obviously given to believe an emotional outburst is a confirmation of evidence that what he was being told. I would bet he did not do any research into other religions, or into the religion he was sold into. He was taught what to think instead of how. The evidence of this is seen in his post, no matter what argument he is presented he must fall back into what he is told instead of giving it any critical thought. So any further examination can now only be done from a his deluded perspective and he is incapable of critical thought unless it is twisted to fit his perspective.
    This is why it is useless to discuss things with him.

    Sorry thunder your just the best example I have on hand…lol

  9. Thunder Says:

    * Sorry thunder your just the best example I have on hand…loln *

    Partly right and mostly wrong. You are sorry. I see no reason from you. I see you truncating what I relate and filling in the gaps created with your own self-indulgent exposition. You weren`t there and I was. That authorizes me and disqualifes you. What you were wrong about is that you claim to have me but in reality you have your own comfortable effigy you like to pin my name to while slandering me and will pin someone elses name to when you need to denigrate them.

  10. Critic Says:

    I say that every time I talk to an atheist. They don`t seem to know the difference between an opinion and a fact.

    Unlike the extremely rational religious mind that only operates on facts and not opinion, eh Thunder? Your idiotic drivel is truly amazing. There is no fact associated with religion – except perhaps that the religious will believe anything and say anything in furtherance of their atrocities on human society.

    I suppose that the atheist would have to simply convert to whatever your perverted religion might be and then you would think of them as discarding opinion for fact? You are a fool.

  11. Admin Says:

    Can I ask everyone to treat each other with respect. We may have strong opinions about other people’s ideas but we should avoid personal attacks. It tends to create more heat than light.

    Thanks.

  12. Renshia Says:

    ” You weren`t there and I was.”

    Okay, so did you study other religions before you made your choice?
    Did you study your own religion and research it for truth comparing it to other religions.
    If you didn’t how can you know you made the right choice?
    I am sure you believe many other people have been deceived (muslims, catholics, J.W’s), what evidence persuaded you that of all the religions yours was the truth? What evidence at 7 years old did you use to make the choice that your version of Christianity above all other religions was true?

    Or was it just an emotional stirring that confirmed the truth you follow.

    I do not mean to attack you and I do not demean you.

    I miss trust your opinions and the things you lay out as fact, I feel you have been sucked in and made a slave to delusion and I do not think it is your fault. But I do feel that for someone coming to an atheist sight you should be able to share this info, it may provide some credibility to you and your beliefs if you share the experience of your persuasion.

    Unless of coarse you just trusted those around you and followed because you were just told it was the truth and are here now thinking we should just follow your version of the truth.. because you have said so?

  13. Critic Says:

    You weren`t there and I was.

    Prove it or stop wasting our time.

  14. Renshia Says:

    ” I see no reason from you”
    Of coarse you don’t How could you?
    Your entire perspective is limited by your devotion to what you hold to be true. A truth that you were convinced in by the time you were seven years old. You believed that you were taught “TRUTH” and told that God has given you spiritual understanding and those who believe or see differently from you do not have true understanding and are wrong.
    You believe it. So, it is only reasonable that you can see no reason in what we say.

    But you have been brainwashed, no different from the Mormons or the J.W’s or any other religion. Your were just brainwashed into believing their version is true. Hey, I was to… but there is light if you look for it. All it takes is asking questions and refusing to settle for crappy answers.

  15. Thunder Says:

    * Okay, so did you study other religions before you made your choice? *

    I didn`t say that. What I said was that my religion is a pursuit which to someone who can actually listen should indicate that I`m still framing my position. I`m openminded.

    * Did you study your own religion and research it for truth comparing it to other religions. *

    Already answered. Answered again in the preceeding response.

    * If you didn’t how can you know you made the right choice? *

    I`m positive I made the right choice because I choose to remain open to modification of my faith construct.

    * I am sure you believe many other people have been deceived (muslims, catholics, J.W’s) *

    I have not attacked anyone. I attack systems that mimic the authentic article. This is like a game of red light, green light. God is base and EVERYONE ELSE is in the game. Someday God will turn around (appear)and say STOP! Then he will judge based upon where each persons focus is. You atheists will have your back turned to him completely. Only the ones looking at him will remain (and according to scripture that won`t be very many).

    * what evidence persuaded you that of all the religions yours was the truth? *

    The attitude and the motive.

    * What evidence at 7 years old did you use to make the choice that your version of Christianity above all other religions was true? *

    I`ve already told you I won`t elaborate on it. You should have asked that question before you started speculating. You betrayed your intent to reject and ridicule and demean whatever I may have said. You need very little from me to attack me. It is your intent to attack what you don`t understand.

    * Or was it just an emotional stirring that confirmed the truth you follow. *

    I have already answered this at least four times in rebuttal to speculation. I said it wasn`t and that is what I mean. I value my honesty. I SAID it was an event. One I prompted (God put his little spin on it literally).

    * I do not mean to attack you and I do not demean you. *

    Detente` won`t last. It is in your nature to hate me. Even now your questions are leading and not inquisitive the end result of which in your hope will be cornering me into a incurable logical fallacy.

    * I miss trust your opinions *

    You don`t allow me my opinions opting to assign what you think I should support. Can`t get past that until you exhibit a different standard operating tendancy. It is invalid to dismiss me out of hand as illogical and unreasonable.

    * the things you lay out as fact *

    Like what?

    * I feel you have been sucked in and made a slave to delusion *

    So your feelings are relevant to me but mine aren`t?

    * I do not think it is your fault. *

    You stand absolutely no chance of convincing me that I have not applied my reason to my position.

    * But I do feel that for someone coming to an atheist sight you should be able to share this info *

    It is not me that has shown any inability.

    * it may provide some credibility to you *

    Apparently you have not really looked at your own posts. Again you have betrayed your intent to hold anyone professing belief as incredible. It IS a prejudice.

    * if you share the experience of your persuasion. *

    NOT going to happen. It CAN`T convince you. You aren`t looking to be convinced. You are looking for a tangible reason to validate your unjustified disrespect. Again….. if you want proof it is available to anyone and everyone who approaches God TO RECEIVE.

    * Unless of coarse you just trusted those around you and followed because you were just told it was the truth *

    From your own coffers (speculation). You can`t help it.

    * and are here now thinking we should just follow your version of the truth *

    I don`t have a version of the truth. I DEFY YOU to provide an instance where I have appealed to you to stop thinking and just follow. It was NEVER done to me regardless of what your intuition tells you.

  16. Thunder Says:

    * Prove it or stop wasting our time. *

    Asked and answered. My position won`t change because of any abiding need for you to believe me. It is your prerogative to dismiss upon principle or for no good reason at all if you wish. But you can`t convince me by pretense that it is upon principle that you have chosen.

  17. Thunder Says:

    * Of coarse you don’t How could you? *

    I can`t when you don`t provide any.

    * Your entire perspective is limited by your devotion to what you hold to be true. *

    Self-reflect. My perspective is NOT limited at all. I`m open to anything valid. Your opposition to God is not validated by evidence and your opinion as to the validity of my position cannot override my own personal experience. Nor can your inexperience of God stand as strong indication because you are disinterested in that inexperience. Choosing to debate on things you are completely unaware of.

    * A truth that you were convinced in by the time you were seven years old. *

    As long as I can remember I have believed in God. The event I`m talking about was related to being inundated by others projecting their doubt. You chose being ignorant as preferrable. I didn`t.

    * You believed….are wrong. *

    I KNOW you don`t have a clue what you are talking about. Your speculation is irrelevant.

    * You believe it. So, it is only reasonable that you can see no reason in what we say. *

    Pretending to qualify to expound upon my life lacks any valid reason.

    * But you have been brainwashed *

    Again pretending to be qualified to address what you can`t validate is unreasonable and inflammatory. You can`t convince me only piss me off. The only thing you are convincing me of by your rampant speculation is that you are delusional and knee deep in reverance to something that isn`t meant to be anything but a tool. Atheism is a religion. I become more convinced every time you post.

    * no different from the Mormons or the J.W’s or any other religion. *

    You don`t know. You refuse to be informed about what you are debating.

    * Your were just brainwashed into believing their version is true. *

    Blah blah blah blah blah….. You never stop. You don`t know a damn thing.

    * Hey, I was to… but there is light if you look for it. *

    Already addressed your proselytizing to willful ignorance and pompacity.

    * All it takes is asking questions and refusing to settle for crappy answers. *

    You always asked the wrong person. You NEVER personalized God. If you had then you would have dismissed those you held as exemplification when they ultimately and inevitably failed to measure up to the God they weren`t.

  18. Renshia Says:

    ” betrayed your intent to reject and ridicule and demean whatever I may have said.”
    ” your intent to attack what you don`t understand.”

    First of all it is only your assumption I don’t understand. You assume this because I disagree with you. You think this because the brainwashing you have incurred as I mentioned before.

    ” It is in your nature to hate me”

    I know you need to think I hate you or that it is my nature to. Again this is a manifestation of your brainwashing.
    I know it is useless to tell you I don’t hate you.. not at all. I do hate what has been done to you and what you now chose to represent. But, in no way do I hate you. In fact if you were here I would give you a great big bear hug to prove it. but alas you just have to not believe me.

    “It is invalid to dismiss me out of hand as illogical and unreasonable.”

    Again your brainwashing has you denying that I could have walked in the faith as you walk and so you can not accept that my dismissal of what you say is not just “out of hand” but from my own “personal experience”.

    “My perspective is NOT limited at all.”

    hahahahahah. If it isn’t then take a moment to consider the possibility you have been brainwashed.

    “You NEVER personalized God.”

    again it is your brainwashing that makes you believe this. A nice programed response.

    “If you had then you would have dismissed those you held as exemplification when they ultimately and inevitably failed to measure up to the God they weren`t.”

    It was not because of those I looked up to failed to measure up to anything. I never judged god because of the acts of man.
    nor did seeing all the corruption that permeated the religious construct of the church.

    It was the complete and total lack of any manifestation of any kind of a god that cared.

    But I would expect that your brainwashing cannot allow you to believe that either.

  19. Thunder Says:

    * Renshia *

    Clueless.

  20. Critic Says:

    My position won`t change because of any abiding need for you to believe me. It is your prerogative to dismiss upon principle or for no good reason at all if you wish. But you can`t convince me by pretense that it is upon principle that you have chosen.

    I’m not trying to get you to change your position. I LOVE the fact that you are wasting your life.

    Apparently you cannot prove anything you believe. Truly a waste of time.

  21. Critic Says:

    Thunder said: I`m openminded.

    Dear Thunder:

    You are not open minded unless you are willing to accept the possibility that there is no god and that your religion is complete human fabrication. I suspect that you are not willing to accept that as even a possibility. Am I wrong about this?

    However, I am open minded. I have stated that if scientific proof is presented that a god exists I will have to change my mind and become a religious person.

    Please try to be more honest in your replies in the future. Thank you for your consderation.

    Respectfully,

    Critic

  22. Renshia Says:

    “* Renshia *

    Clueless.”

    yes clueless as to how you can maintain this delusion you live.

  23. Thunder Says:

    * You are not open minded *

    You don`t know a thing about me.

    * unless you are willing to accept the possibility that there is no god *

    Maybe I wasn`t clear or maybe you can`t hear. Bring me your proof there is no God. I have already told you I faced that possibility and received confirmation that there is NO POSSIBILITY. I am open minded bring your proof and see if I don`t give it the attention it deserves. However….. liping off won`t cut it.

    * that your religion is complete human fabrication. *

    Jesus is human. Jesus is God. Do the math. (made in Gods image).

    * I suspect that you are not willing to accept that as even a possibility. *

    You are blind. It is you that is unwilling to face the possibility. I tell you how to obtain proof but you continue to ask for proof that will enslave you to what you don`t want if it were to be given you. God does NOT WANT YOU IF YOU ARE UNWILLING! That`s right GOD DOESN`T WANT YOU! The only way to change that would be for you to some how do the impossible and start to want God and then approach him and that is what I am promoting. It is what I am authorized to promote but you are close minded. You CAN`T do it.

    * However, I am open minded. *

    No you are not. And the proof of that is in the very next clause (sentence).

    * I have stated that if scientific proof is presented that a god exists I will have to change my mind and become a religious person. *

    Have to does NOT equate to willing. And scientific proof is predicated on observable or detectable phenomena. It is unrelated to the supernatural which is substrate to the physical realm. And I have said that you CAN`T dictate terms to God. There is NO WAY you can sell that to me as being locigal.

    * Please try to be more honest in your replies in the future. *

    I am honest……

    * Respectfully *

    …..you are not.

  24. Thunder Says:

    * You are not open minded *

    You don`t know a thing about me.

    * unless you are willing to accept the possibility that there is no god *

    Maybe I wasn`t clear or maybe you can`t hear. Bring me your proof there is no God. I have already told you I faced that possibility and received confirmation that there is NO POSSIBILITY. I am open minded bring your proof and see if I don`t give it the attention it deserves. However….. liping off won`t cut it.

    * that your religion is complete human fabrication. *

    Jesus is human. Jesus is God. Do the math. (made in Gods image).

    * I suspect that you are not willing to accept that as even a possibility. *

    You are blind. It is you that is unwilling to face the possibility. I tell you how to obtain proof but you continue to ask for proof that will enslave you to what you don`t want if it were to be given you. God does NOT WANT YOU IF YOU ARE UNWILLING! That`s right GOD DOESN`T WANT YOU! The only way to change that would be for you to some how do the impossible and start to want God and then approach him and that is what I am promoting. It is what I am authorized to promote but you are close minded. You CAN`T do it.

    * However, I am open minded. *

    No you are not. And the proof of that is in the very next clause (sentence).

    * I have stated that if scientific proof is presented that a god exists I will have to change my mind and become a religious person. *

    Have to does NOT equate to willing. And scientific proof is predicated on observable or detectable phenomena. It is unrelated to the supernatural which is substrate to the physical realm. And I have said that you CAN`T dictate terms to God. There is NO WAY you can sell that to me as being locigal.

    * Please try to be more honest in your replies in the future. *

    I am honest……

    * Respectfully *

    …..you are not.

  25. Thunder Says:

    Logical. NOT locigal.

  26. Renshia Says:

    ” You don`t know a thing about me.”
    Your a liar.
    Either in all that you post here or all that you are.
    You write things like my nature is to hate you or my intent is to attack, or I could not have tried to know GOD. You act like you know lots about us.
    Do you think your the only one that learns things about people by what they post.
    Or are you just a fake come here to try and start arguments?

    “Bring me your proof there is no God.”
    You are our proof their is no god! You with your hypocrisy, your anger, your wishy washy stand on everything, you who has stated he’s been a Christian since he was seven..It this the love of Christ we are to behold. You would think you would show some love, some compassion, but instead you lash out with anger, spew out threats and then profess god doesn’t want us… Who the hell are you to profess you know the mind of god?????

    Where is this representative of the God of love you are suppose to be.
    Oh yeah I see him, lashing out in anger with threats, just like his father…
    This is the god I am supposed to worship. The one that throws a tantrum and threatens me with eternal fire… Gee’s I am sorry, but I have to disassociate myself on simple moral principle alone.
    What kind of God would simply refuse eternal life to some one who doesn’t profess his name?
    What kind of a vain egotistical bastard would do something like that. Only some contorted delusionally manifested lie. Follow what you want Thunder, but save us the blubber you spew…..

    You Thunder and All I see that you represent is why I Know and have full proof that there is no god.

  27. Critic Says:

    The Philosopher Thunder said:

    Maybe I wasn`t clear or maybe you can`t hear. Bring me your proof there is no God. I have already told you I faced that possibility and received confirmation that there is NO POSSIBILITY.

    Therein in lies the prof of Thunder’s unreasonableness. He expects us to prove that there is no god when we all admit that, logically, you cannot prove a negative. Then he tells us that he has “received confirmation.” But of course that confirmation is just he word that we should accept unconditionally. He provides no proof. He apparently has no proof.

    However, he knows that there is no possibility that there is no god. That is not logical or coherent thought.

    This demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of probability theory or uncertainty analysis – from someone who has said that he has never seen any conflict between science and religion. It also demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of scientific proof and a complete lack of understanding of the entire issue.

    Once again we have a religious person telling us that god exists because that person says that god exists. That is hardly a sound reason for establishment of a personal philosophy. It is however a good reason for doubting anything that such a person may say.

  28. Thunder Says:

    * Your a liar. *

    Redundant.

    * You write things like my nature is to hate you or my intent is to attack *

    You can`t beg off your process which indicates your character (or lack of).

    * or I could not have tried to know GOD. *

    Not what I said. I said you don`t understand. I said you failed to personalize God. Everything you say about the subject is ignorance not familiarity.

    * You act like you know lots about us. *

    I respond to what you post.

    * Do you think your the only one that learns things about people by what they post. *

    No. But I don`t think you learn things about me by my posts. I think you dismiss everything I say and put your own spin to things you don`t know a damn thing about.

    * Or are you just a fake come here to try and start arguments? *

    It`s well known don`t talk about religion or politics. Conflict is inevitable.

    * You are our proof their is no god! *

    Ad hominem, non-sequitur.

    * You would think you would show some love, some compassion *

    What I do is tell the truth.

    * instead you lash out with anger, spew out threats and then profess god doesn’t want us… *

    I did not. I DEFY you to provide a quote where I have mentioned hell or the wrath of God. I simply don`t do that. And you are contorting what I posted by omitting the word ‘IF’….. CONDITIONAL. NOT posted in anger.

    * Who the hell are you to profess you know the mind of god????? *

    Blatant pretense from someone who judges Gods character. I say what is scriptural and you judge God based upon your incomplete understanding.

    * Gee’s I am sorry, but I have to disassociate myself on simple moral principle alone. *

    Moral principle would motivate you to be precise in your characterizations of others. I don`t see any care taken on your part to be correct. Something I have tirelessly pointed out with every instance.

    * What kind of God would simply refuse eternal life to some one who doesn’t profess his name? *

    His son`s name. The parable of the travelling farmer. It makes sense.