4th February 2008

“Whenever morality is based on theology, whenever the right is made dependent on divine authority, the most immoral, unjust, infamous things can be justified and established. Morality is then surrendered to the groundless arbitrariness of religion.”

Ludwig Feuerbach1804 – 1872

23 Responses to “4th February 2008”

  1. Critic Says:

    The belief that morality comes from religion is one of the most absurd, of many absurd, beliefs of the religious mind. There is very little moral behavior in the stories of religious texts. The bible is filled with immoral evil acts by those who are the special friends of god.

    Killing doctors who perform abortions and suicide bombings – excellent examples of the moral acts of the modern religious mind.

  2. Renshia Says:

    I like the way God is always credited for the good things, and how all the bad things are mans fault. I think this is why God gets so many followers. It demoralizes people so that they desperately turn to anything that offers any solutions. I think this is the same reason that people turn to drugs, they know it is bad, but it offers a good escape from the reality around themselves. of course this is only temporarily, they don’t understand how much damage it does until it is to late to stop.

    We are man and we learn by making mistakes. Religion capitalizes by attacking those mistakes and demoralizing it’s people. Then offers the golden carrot of redemption.

    Funny thing is the most crooked people I know are bible thumpers. I find it hugely offensive that religion would claim any link to morality at all.

  3. Critic Says:

    I like the way God is always credited for the good things, and how all the bad things are mans fault.

    Interesting observation – one that matches many of my experiences with the religious mind. Then there is the other approach: everything that happens (good and bad) is god’s will.

    So, in the case of an abused and murdered child, the religious mind finds comfort in one of two paths.

    1) It was evil committed by humans who are able to do such things becasue god granted us free will. This is the “hands-off” version of god popularized by the more moderate christians that I know. Of course, they will also ask god to help their favorite sports team to win – apparently not seeing any contradiction.

    2) It was god’s will. We can’t understand the mind of god, we just have to accept that it was, “part of god’s plan.”

    In neither case does god behave morally. In the first case it is assumed that he has the power to prevent the tragedy but does not by his own choice – at best an an amoral action. In the second case, god designed the event to happen – a definite immoral action.

    How could anyone see moral guidance in such an understanding of the universe?

  4. Nefari Says:

    From Religion 101: Final Exam by Terrence Kaye, pondering god’s morality:

    3. You are a product tester and frequently bring your work home. Yesterday, while dressed in a flame resistant suit (up to 3,000 degrees) and carrying the latest model fire extinguisher, you discover your neighbor’s house is on fire. As the flames quickly spread, you stand and watch your neighbor’s new baby burn to death. Which of the following best describes your behavior?

    1. All-powerful
    2. All-knowing
    3. All-loving
    4. Mysterious

    http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/guestessays/religion101.html

  5. Terence Meaden Says:

    “Atheism leaves a man to sense, to philosophy, to natural piety, to laws, to reputation; all of which may be guides to an outward moral virtue, even if religion vanished; but religious superstition dismounts all these and erects an absolute monarchy in the minds of men.” Francis Bacon

  6. Terence Meaden Says:

    “Those not believing in gods and angels share the same high moral values as the superstitious believers who make false claims on the basis of purported sacred writings and ‘revealed’ religion. The credulous have no prerogative to make such claims. They merely shout the loudest and the longest. Some of the most immoral edicts, codes and pronouncements ever made by mankind issue from their mouths.” G.Terence Meaden

  7. Thunder Says:

    * Killing doctors who perform abortions and suicide bombings – excellent examples of the moral acts of the modern religious mind. *

    What was it twelve years ago that vanderbilt doctor was murdered in atlanta? Yeah, mention the exceptions as if it is the rule.

  8. Critic Says:

    Yeah, mention the exceptions as if it is the rule.

    There are still plenty of people who think that act was justified. Here’s one such religious leader’s defense of such actions and his religious justification of murder.

    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0309/02/se.01.html

    Religion is for the sick of mind. The rest of us will happily do without, thank you very much.

  9. Thunder Says:

    * The belief that morality comes from religion is one of the most absurd, of many absurd, beliefs of the religious mind. *

    Your assmption that you are equiped to evaluate the religious position is absurd to the point of obscenity. In a colloquial sense believers say that morality comes from religion. But to be precise religion is toward God (or whatever is venerated). What comes to us from God pertaining to this issue is a standard by which we may attenuate our sense of morality to a unified understanding. It is NOT a religious tenet that morality outside of religion is NON-existent. We just did have that discussion! Romans chapter 12 where a person that the law did not go out to is naturally lawful when they do those things (WITHOUT HAVING BEEN TOLD).

  10. Thunder Says:

    * There are still plenty of people who think that act was justified. *

    My position on that would be predicated on a lot of ifs.

    * Here’s one such religious leader’s defense of such actions and his religious justification of murder. *

    I saw no religious justification in that transcript. Keep in mind my position has always been to defend the faith not the ones that get it wrong.

    * Religion is for the sick of mind. *

    That crap is a logical fallacy. Guns don`t kill people. People kill people.

    * The rest of us will happily do without, thank you very much. *

    Your prerogative.

  11. Critic Says:

    Your assmption that you are equiped to evaluate the religious position is absurd to the point of obscenity.

    Everyone of your posts simply confirms one of my multiple working hypotheses. However, I will admit that you are singlehandedly verifying my favored hypothesis.

    Romans chapter 12[…]

    Talk about obscenity! There you go quoting from the bible which is the most meaningless book of primitive obscenities ever assembled by religious caveat. Surely you should know that quoting the bible on an atheist forum is beyond meaningless. We are not positively impressed with anything that you justify with ‘scripture’ because it is all useless to the modern educated mind – well not totally useless since it does shed light into some of the most heinous atrocities ever commited by humanity.

    The bible, like all religious texts, is primarily used for the justification of ignorance. Beware the bible quoter for he is up to no good.

  12. Renshia Says:

    “That crap is a logical fallacy. Guns don`t kill people. People kill people.”

    Logical Fallacy..ha. Only a person brainwashed into a delusion could possibly ignore all of the FACTS about the horrific atrocities that have plagued the world because of religion. Atrocities even you have admitted have occurred in the name of religion Thunder. This is not Fallacy, but provable fact.
    And your right religion like guns in the hands of people is what kill people. Both of these should only be in the hands of sane rational people. However due to the nature of religion.. it being an absurd concept only the deranged that do not have a firm grasp of reality flock towards, or are brainwashed into believing, should be eradicated. Just like guns should be regulated away from such people as well.

  13. Thunder Says:

    * Logical Fallacy..ha. *

    It is a logical fallacy that religion is culprit to any attrocity whatever. Again guns don`t kill people. People kill people.

    * Only a person brainwashed *

    Again: non-sequitur. Ad hominem.

    * ignore all of the FACTS about the horrific atrocities that have plagued the world because of religion. *

    Already chewed that fat once. If it comes back up spit it out. You ain`t a cow or a dog are you. It is NOT because of religion that these things occured. It is because of a human fallibility and exacerbated by false religion.

    * Atrocities even you have admitted have occurred in the name of religion Thunder. *

    That doesn`t precisely reflect what I have said. I said I defend the proper religious position. I do NOT defend the ones that get it wrong either intentionally or (to a lesser extent) ignorantly.

    * This is not Fallacy, but provable fact. *

    It is absolutely a fallacy.

    * And your right religion like guns in the hands of people is what kill people. *

    Through a MISUSE and nefarious motives. NOT religiouos use or religious motives. Read this….. This is correct.

    http://www.newswithviews.com/Bill/sizemore9.htm

    * due to the nature of religion.. it being an absurd *

    You don`t know what you are talking about.

    * Just like guns should be regulated away from such people as well. *

    I see you are afraid that atheism will be taken away from you but it is a moral mission for you to divest me of my belief. That sounds like a catholic attitude during the dark ages.

  14. Thunder Says:

    * I will admit that you are singlehandedly verifying my favored hypothesis. *

    You are immune to reason. What I said was a plain FACT. We already discussed that and a position contrary to what was being characterized and criticized had been proffered. It proves you idiots don`t listen. It proves you don`t know what you are pretending to know.

  15. Critic Says:

    You are immune to reason.

    No. I am immune to foolish christian apologists spouting off their wrote learning as if it was some kind of wisdom.

    It proves you idiots don`t listen.

    We, and I admit that I am being presumptious to speak for all of us atheist idiots out here, are certainly not swayed by childish drivel.

  16. Hypatia Says:

    “It proves you don`t know what you are pretending to know.”

    Surely, an atheist is someone who doesn’t pretend to know anything.

  17. Thunder Says:

    I wish there was an ignor button here.

  18. Critic Says:

    I wish there was an ignoramous button here. ;{>}

  19. Thunder Says:

    * I wish there was an ignoramous button here. ;{>} *

    It`s on your keyboard. |?}

  20. Thunder Says:

    * Surely, an atheist is someone who doesn’t pretend to know anything. *

    An atheist is someone who pretends to know everything and afraid to let on that they don`t.

  21. Hypatia Says:

    “An atheist is someone who pretends to know everything”

    Give me an example.

    As far as I can see there are hundreds of different faiths on this Earth claiming knowledge – all of which is mutually incompatible – so there must be a lot of pretending going on amongst religionists – you included.

  22. thunder Says:

    * Give me an example. *

    Throw a dead cat in here you`ll hit one.

    * a lot of pretending going on amongst religionists – you included. *

    What have I pretended? What have I claimed of myself?

  23. Critic Says:

    What have I pretended? What have I claimed of myself?

    It seems that you have at least implied that you have the knowledge of the will of god. If I’m wrong, say so, but if I’m right, I would claim that you are pretending – based on the lack of evidence of the existence of god.

    But, more to the point of Hypatia’s post, all of the religions of man cannot be right, but they all assert that theirs is the one true religion or one true sect within a religion. I believe that is the pretending to which Hypatia referred.

    The dilemma is this: If there is a god and if he has one true religion, as each religion claims, then all the other religions are false. Therefore, you must discount all but one religion. Well, if you can ignore all but one religions, it’s really easy to see that disbelief in one more religion is the final logical step to intellectual freedom and a life of true happiness.

    So, come join us Thunder and denounce your religion and realize that there is no god. :-{>}

    [I know. That will never happen. But I thought I would try out some evangelical atheism just for fun.]