23rd August 2012

“More than two-thirds of fertilised eggs are lost in nature… If each of these is really a person, that is, an eternal soul, it would lead to the absurd conclusion that heaven is mainly populated by people who have never been born.”

Dr Michael Irwin

12 Responses to “23rd August 2012”

  1. R J Says:

    this guy has WAY too much time on his hands

  2. R J Says:

    this guy has WAY too much time on his hands

  3. TIGERLILY Says:

    Q E D —- well said Dr Irwin

  4. Sinjin Smythe Says:

    Yes but can you imagine the look on the faces of the devoutly religious person when they arrive at the pearly gates and find fetuses in various states of development are 2 of every 3 people in heaven?

    Think fetuses lying around gyrating, some making guttural vocalizations that sound like crying or gasping, and having to make your way around them.

    There are few things I can imagine that are more repulsive than the assertions of the faithful. Clearly they don’t consider the implications of their religious fantasy.

  5. Atheist MC Says:

    What about identical twins? Are they ensouled with two separate souls at conception or does one soul split into two later? It is a puzzlement and no mistake.

  6. Kittie Aldakkour Says:

    Sam Harris said it best:

    “In fact, 20% of all recognized pregnancies end in miscarriage. There is an obvious truth here that cries out for acknowledgment: if God exists, He is the most prolific abortionist of all.”

    The actual number (according to my doctor) is 50% but Sam makes the distinction of using “recognized” pregnancy as opposed to the fertilized egg that doesn’t implant and nobody is the wiser… as the cycle is not really interrupted…

    Having experienced this loss at 9 weeks, I feel entitled at times to use this little statistic and Sam’s saying when in certain discussions I hear people bleating about abortion or babies being a “gift from god”…..

  7. Jeff Says:

    It gets worse: What about the ectopic pregnancies? The real wonder is that these wonderful personhood amendments that have been proposed by the Republican Vice Presidential candidate would make the surgery to save a woman’s life from an ectopic pregnancy an abortion, sending either the surgeon or the woman (or both) to jail, or the woman to her grave, if it isn’t done. On those standards, I would not have a son (either she would have been in jail when he was conceived, or she would have been dead). What happens to his soul?

  8. Jeff Says:

    Of course this whole discussion has deteriorated to the point of asking how many zygotes can dance on the head of a pin. Of course, unlike angles, if we can assume an average number of cells per zygote, and an average cell size, this is a calculable number…

  9. Jeff Says:

    Erase and correct: angles should read angels… Sorry

  10. Sinjin Smythe Says:

    Today’s filiopietistic Republicans bear little to what I grew up knowing. I think of leaving my party affiliation all the time.

    Todd Akin makes Joe Biden appear sane.

  11. Sinjin Smythe Says:

    First a little history of the religious right’s opposition to abortion/infanticide:

    The first known conviction for the “intention to abort” was handed down in Maryland in the year 1652.

    Four years later, also in Maryland, a woman was arrested for murder after procuring an abortion, but the case was thrown out when she married the only witness, who then refused to testify.

    A 1710 Virginia law made it a capital crime to conceal a pregnancy and then be found with a dead baby.

    A 1719 Delaware law made anyone who counseled abortion or infanticide an accessory to murder.

    At this point in history, infanticide was probably the most frequent way of killing unwanted, illegitimate children.

    Abortifacients were known and used in early America,” but since using them was dangerous to the life of the mother and child was viewed as undesirable.

    Secondly, it is this clinging to the notion that the death of any fetus is exactly the same as any other and that both equate to infanticide that doesn’t relate to modern life.

    Today’s filiopietistic Republicans are holding fast to old ideas for which science has since shown new information:

    1. As Jeff has mentioned “cells per zygote”, and Kittie Sam Harris has compared the earliest fetal developments as a 150 celled blastocyst, the visual equivalent of a fly larvae.. To both these examples we can see the traditional view held by many Republicans, that all babies conceived and yet to be, are infants and ending their development is infanticide is premature at the very least.

    2. The original problem was not of losing a pregnancy early on, heck they didn’t even know the woman was pregnant until certain obvious later term signs appeared.

    Also, the original problem was people being found with a dead baby: aborted or suffocated or head crushed, et cetera.

    This fine line between killing and infant and aborting a late term pregnancy is at the heart of the issue: opne being murder the other abortion. What might separate the two could be a few minutes.

    Compounding the problem was the use of abortifacients that were unreliable and dangerous to the health of Mother and unborn child/fetus.

    Now even the very most Liberal of persons should be able to see the obvious problems that exist under the conditions of 100 and 200 and more years ago. We simply do not want to be so casual with the extinguishing of life as to be yanking late term fetuses out of uteruses, just as we don’t want to stone our little baby because our husband was a lout and ran off.

    The modern problem with today’s filiopietistic Republicans is that they have not learned the new information, they don’t fully understand the nature and origin of their objection, and they as in the case of Todd Akin may lack the capacity to understand.

    I don’t want to kill anything, it brings me sorrow when I see the life potential removed from a healthy vibrant person. I dont like to see anything killed really, not the gazelle by the lion, or the lion by the hunter. I don’t like it when people chop down trees, I don’t like to see the Exxon Valdez spewing oil onto the beaches.

    But as anyone who has seen The Lion King where the father tells his son about the circle of life knows life isn’t fair to every participant and no amount of trying to make it fair will make it so.

    So to conclude I’d want to offer a solution and that is education. Rather than partisan put downs, and insults, and accusations, how about all of us Pro-choice people learn the origins of the religious objection to abortion and then share the knowledge with our Pro-Life adversary fellow citizens?

    It is a quality of “mercy” that we take the life of the mortally wounded, that Dr. Kavorkian efforts to bring physician assisted suicide to terminally ill and suffering people was merciful goodness, and that preventing a child from being born into a world where they are unwanted is best handled early as possible.

    Early as possible may very well be abstinance, it can also be the morning after pill, contraception, a shot of Estrogen in the morning, something better than a coat-hangar in a back alley late in term.

    It is a quality of mercy that we should share with all people, animals, and plants: Life.

  12. Kittie Aldakkour Says:

    Sinjin – those pro-lifers are crazy! I don’t think any of the people I know would sit still for a history lesson on unwanted pregnancy. They don’t care to understand where their beliefs come from, most of them look at me like I have two heads when I tell them that nobody knows who actually wrote Matthew, Mark, Luke and John… since it is obvious. I am cringing right beside you with all of the shows that show animals getting eaten by other animals…

    I don’t know if I left the wrong impression about my pregnancy that ended in miscarriage – it was not self induced. It was god.
    I can’t support late term abortion either – I have two children – that makes no sense to me and is murder. I was always surprised by Hitchens view on this subject. Totally was not what I expected.