30th November 2012

“The Founding Fathers knew, not only from history but from personal witness and experience, that religion and politics make a deadly combination.”

Susan Hanley Lane

13 Responses to “30th November 2012”

  1. The Heretic Says:

    Just look at Islam and the countries with Sharia. No thank you.

  2. Bruce Williams Says:

    Yet another quote from Jefferson is in order here.

    We find in the writings of his biographers … a groundwork of vulgar ignorance, of things impossible, of superstitions, fanaticisms and fabrications.
    — Thomas Jefferson, to William Short, August 4, 1822, referring to Jesus’s biographers, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

  3. Allan Says:

    The first 5 groups of settlers in America, the Pilgrims, the Welsh Quakers, the Heugonots, the Palatine Germans, and the Ulster Scots were all refugees from oppression or persecution by established churches. I am sure that the present bible beaters would persecute everybody else if they had the power.

  4. R J Says:

    ALLAN AT 503

    i like your post….and i agree with your conclusion…especially

    your last few words, ” IF they had the power.”

    makes me fondly remember my favorite bumper sticker

    which reads

    ” F**K 911…..CALL .357 ”

  5. The Heretic Says:

    IF THEY HAD THE POWER – if anyone had the power they would use it against everyone else.

    In the US – no one has the power, per the Constitution. It is against the first amendment to have a state backed religion. Now you may argue that Christianity is pervasive in American culture, and indeed it has many adherents (so called or otherwise). But, is Christianity a religion? It is a collection of them maybe. But, it is not really a religion. Bill O’Reilly said that it was a pholisophy, I don’t agree with that overmuch. It is a grouping of religious sects that have similar tenets but that don’t really get along too well with each other.

    Back to my point. Athiests right now seem to have litigious power. And, in my opinion, are doing harm to athiests’ causes of freedom from religion as a right. Militant atheists have their hands in destroying the culture/traditions of the US. I am opposed.

    Christmas. A time of lights, trees, gaeity, Santa Clause…..all non-religious secular things. It is part of the American tradition, which is predominantly in the Judeo/Christian tradition. It is our culture. Yet, some atheists wish to remove these things. A navity scene – who cares? It is part of a religious person’s Christmas. I do not believe in it. It is not infringing on my rights. A Menorah. A symbol of Hanukkah – part of the fabric of the December holiday season. Not hurting anyone. Not imposing religious servitude upon anyone. Not a symbol of oppression – just a symbol.

    Easter. Bunnies bouncing around with colored eggs handing out chocolate. OK – so the religious sorts also have some other things going on that time of year, but it doesn’t interfere with my hiding dyed ovum around my house. It is a tradition. And a fun one for children and adults alike. It heralds the coming of spring and new life.

    A Cross. Seen on churches and tombstones signifying religion adherence of the living and dead. It comforts families of those who have passed. It is two sticks that overlap perpendicularly. It means nothing to me and doesn’t hurt me. But, it makes Christians happy. Why should we take that away from them publicly? Just because we don’t need any such frippery, why are some of us out to deny it to others?

    The Ten Commandments. A set of rules for living civilly amongst each other. OK, the first few are targetting their members and their adherence to their religion. But the rest? Pretty good rules to live by. They don’t hurt anyone by being visible. They follow the traditions of America. Why must they be moved out of a courthouse. They are not forcing anyone to attend a church. It is a Christian symbol and again – Christianity is not a religion.

    Atheists are now persecuting theists because they are asserting POWER. We are depriving them of their traditions – not their religion. Why? That is not our goal. Our goal is to live peaceable amongst them in society. Why are we the aggressors here. If we wish to gain acceptance, why are we being so hard to get along with. We should be the easiest persons in the world to get along with. Afterall, we demand nothing. We just want to be able to not follow the religion(s) of our choosing.

    I see a parallel with the gay community. Most people (except the most fundamentalist of the religious / and Muslims (but I repeat myself)) could care less what they (gay persons) do in their bedrooms. But they (the rest of society) will be damned to have it flaunted vulgarly in the faces of their children. Straight people don’t do that. It does not help them (gay persons) gain societal acceptance; it just pisses other people off.

    I see that happening with atheists. I don’t want to be more equal than everyone else, and I don’t want to deprive people of their traditions and culture. It doesn’t hurt me to see religious symbols in the public square during a holiday or at any other time. I don’t feel the need to critisize the religious – I just want to live freely. I may not agree with them and their beliefs, but if they are not hurting me, why should I care?

    I still like Christmas. I enjoy shopping. I enjoy the lights and the trees and the music. I don’t want to see that die in the American tradition. I like that as part of our culture. I don’t want to see over-reaching atheists with litigious POWER destroy the traditions I hold dear – just because they can.

  6. Ken Says:

    Heretic, It’s time we left religion and all it’s bullshit behind. That is why we protest.
    Their symbols on federal or state property is offensive and should not be allowed period. They might not bother you, but they sure as hell bother the rest of us. That live and let live attitude with religion is why we still have people worshiping invisible sky daddys. Time to take the gloves off. Those deluded people will thank us someday, even if they can’t see it now.

  7. RJ Says:

    HERETIC AT 1614

    excellent and thoughtful post !!!

    thank you (( and keep it up ))

  8. Defiantnonbeliever Says:

    Heretic, apparently you have missed the last 20 yrs of discussion and not come to realize how out of sync your statement is and how mistaken on every one of your points. You’ve got some homework to do catching up.

    As for religion in politics being deadly one can look to the religious motivated temperance movement inspired war on drugs that’s still killing thousands each year, and imprisoning as many. The 2010-12 war on women is another deadly consequence of failure to separate church from state, as is the invasion of Iraq, and the continuing war in Afghanistan. Atheists have hardly begun ousting church from state in the US, and good riddens to it when it is put back in it’s place and out of our wallets, laws, and bedroom.

  9. Jeff Says:


    Let me point out the problem with your analogy to the gay persons who have “flaunted vulgarly in the faces of their children” the gay lifestyle. The straight lifestyle is “flaunted vulgarly” in gay faces every day. When they can’t visit their significant other in the hospital as they lay dying, because they have no legal status. When they can check married on their income tax because of the federal DOMA legislation. When gay partners can serve openly in the military, but are unable to be recognized for military benefits. All of these things are straight people openly flaunting their lifestyle in gay faces.

    So too, with the theists and their perversions. They’ve stolen my flag, they’ve stolen the very motto of my country, they’ve made it so that every summons to jury duty is something I must fear because to refuse their oath opens me to jail for the contempt that they’ve shown me. I cannot run for office – for even if I win, I cannot take the oath required to assume the office that is rightfully mine. And then, with just one office that they can’t preclude me from in that manner, because those forefathers had the good sense to leave the offensive language out of that oath, and enshrined it in the Constitution, a stupid first president fucked that up, too, and now the language is added “by tradition”. And you have the nerve to tell me not to pursue my rights because it might offend someone?

    I read your comment yesterday, and stayed silent, because I know that your worldview prevents you from possibly understanding the plethora of contradictions within your thinking on this matter. Today, I could not stand aside just to prevent you from the apoplexy which I’m sure will ensue from this comment.

  10. Capt'Z Says:

    Heretic – There’s no war on Christians or Christian symbols. Individuals may do any crazy thing they want so long as they don’t infringe on the rights of other citizens. You are free to pray in school but the school cannot tell you to pray. Big difference.

    The litigiousness you complain about takes place where Christians continually attempt to get government support. Notice we don’t see any Hindu or Muslim holidays made into federal holidays. Very CLEARLY, Christian religious practices are given preferential treatment in this country, which is in direct conflict with the Constitution that right leaning political Christians all claim such reverence for.

    Atheists, in insisting on secular government, are patriots.

    Bruce – great quote!

  11. The Heretic Says:

    Ken. It should not be our goal to eradicate religion. I may not agree with religion, but forceably eliminating it is certainly not my goal. You are as bad as the religious who would do the same – I have no respect for that.

    DNB. You believe that the relgious are culpable for the war on drugs and the war on women? As to drugs, I would much rather deal with the consequences of them being illegal than legal. Personal thought. As the the so-called war on women – it was a manufactured crisis started by George Stephenopolis and raised to a crescendo in the media. Obama counted on the stupidity of women in this manufactured crisis, and they largely proved him correct. (BTW – I am a woman – it was humiliating to see.)

    Jeff. I am not against gays in any form. I just think that they would get a little farther with their arguments if they showed a little class – as I believe would the atheists.

    Capt’Z – As stated in my post, the US was established with a Judeo-Christian culture. Its traditions are the backbone of this country – whether you like or agree with it. I like the culture of this country – overall – and I don’t want to change its traditions because a minority of the poplulation thinks we should be PC. It is a bunch of rubbish. Our gov’t is secular…our people and traditions? Not necessarily so. If you wish to see a gov’t that is ruled by a religion – go visit a middle eastern country. Trust me, we are the farthest thing from that. Your perspective is off a bit.

  12. Digdougdogman Says:

    T H
    Are you really S.E. Cupp? What the hell is wrong with you?

  13. Defiantnonbeliever Says:

    Heritic, I suspect you are a ‘concern troll’ and don’t have any interest in real discussion. Those points you pretend to agree with you rather transparently lie to support and those you don’t you show complete blindness to reality. I suggest you read up on the history and issues.