15th December 2012

“People are fed up with religion. The bar-room talk is that it causes too much trouble in the world.”

Rev. Ian Gregory

8 Responses to “15th December 2012”

  1. archaeopteryx Says:

    Is Mr Gregory trying to make a point by characterising analysis of religion and its effects by describing it as bar-room talk? Does he think this makes it seem less reasoned? I think you are as likely to get intelligent discussion in a bar-room as anywhere else.

  2. Jeff Says:

    Sinjin, Heretic and Dan,

    Please do not interpret my lack of reply to your comments of the 13th as anything other than the stunned silence of one who has just seen a group re-define the terms of the argument (the political spectrum) from those accepted since the end of the French Revolution to something that bears no resemblance to anything meaningful. Folks, let’s pay attention here.

    Just because someone was or is a Democrat at some time during the life of the party does NOT make them either a liberal, socialist or communist or anything else. Nor does the fact that someone was a Republican at some time during the life of that party make them a conservative, fascist or anything else. Within our two party system, political parties are coalitions of people who share common goals – but not common ideologies determining how they have come to have those goals.

    An example, in 1948, the first presidential election after Mr. Truman announced the desegregation the military, Strom Thurmond walked out of the Democratic convention and ran against Truman as a “Dixiecrat”, which in turn lead to the stunning picture of newly re-elected Truman holding the newspaper announcing his defeat, by making a Dewey victory almost inevitable because of the split in the Democratic Party (those of us who belong to the party are Democrats, but the Party is the Democratic Party, and the repeating of the words “Democrat Party” marks those who do so as semi-illiterate, either by education or choice) which was culminated when a center-left coalition of Democrats and Republicans passed the Civil and Voting Rights acts of 1964, ’65 and ’67.

    Since you seem to be comfortable throwing your lot with those whose primary legislative agenda of the last 60 years seems to be restricting the human rights of those who would vote against them, as opposed to those whose record is one of expanding those rights regardless of who the voters select, and doing so in the name of individual freedom, so be it. I suppose that you are free to define the political spectrum in any way that you wish, but please do not deceive yourself about what you are doing, and do not assault the senses of anyone who is politically literate by claiming that HITLER and the KKK were on the same side of the political spectrum as the two Roosevelt’s, Johnson and Lincoln. The KKK and their sympathizers voted with the Democrats because they were NOT the party of Lincoln, PERIOD, and the Democrats were willing to take those votes in order to win elections, just as the Republicans have grabbed them since ’68 because the bulk voted against the reforms which reduced their power. See “Southern Strategy” and “Nixon” if you have any doubts on that score.

  3. Dan Says:

    Jeff,
    FYI I am a registered Democrat, and have voted that way in every election since I was 18 (that was 1996).

  4. Sinjin Smythe Says:

    Jeff,
    FYI I am a registered Republican, and have voted that way in every election since I was 18 (that was 1982), with one notable exception this most recent election I did not vote for Mitt Romney.

    As for getting the facets of the political spectrum wrong? Not so fast:
    http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lszcxfYjGD1qlc76bo1_1280.jpg
    http://rationalrevolution.net/images/policomp5.gif

    I appreciate what you are saying in the present tense but the totality of any person’s political bias does not derive from just the present. The characters past and present, the political movements past and present, are part of everyone’s interpretation.

    You have said to me in the past that I ought to come over to your side or join with Democrats if I’m so unhappy with the Republicans and you have a point. It is however my longing for what being Republican was not what it is that has kept me in the party. (I know, not a good reason)

    Democrat party/Democratic party? I know that gets the ire of some Democrats up but don’t you think for most people it is just semantics or that for most people the two terms are interchangeable with no insult intended? I know some right wing lunatics still try and use it as an insult, I’d never do that.

    Ideologies factor into locations on a map as in those links above. I hope it wasn’t interpreted that any of the great right or left lunatics of history is a tendency of either right or left normal folk.

    To the present day context you were speaking of I’m becoming very uncomfortable with present day Republicans, if that isn’t obvious. I voted for Bush Jr twice but reluctantly in both cases. In hind sight what looked like lesser evils on election day strikes me as a bad read.

    I like President Obama and I’m glad Mitt Romney was defeated. While I didn’t vote for the President I did appreciate that he is at the very least consistent.

    I don’t see the growth in regulations, privacy invasions, and the continuance of unjust laws and unfair taxation as a particularly expansive of human rights though.

  5. Sinjin Smythe Says:

    And Dan,

    Yes of course you are correct both are attempting to exact control from the other day: I was only countering the quotation which stated it was all the right.

    I didn’t mean to come out as aligned right or left of that.

    Jeff,
    As for Fascism I think I am correct about the elements of Fascism being derived from both right and left. Fascism has more to do with nationalism or race than anything else. It is a mistake to orient Hitler or Nazis along either side of the spectrum.

  6. RJ Says:

    ARCH AT 1453
    ………………….

    right you are.

  7. Kittie Says:

    Thank you gentlemen, for a very lively, educational and interesting read.

  8. Jeff Says:

    The problem that I have with that analysis is that the chart you showed me had Fascism ALL THE WAY OUT ON THE RIGHT, but NAZISM, which was so closely aligned with Fascism that Hitler, Mussolini and Franco are collectively known as Fascists, is shown to the left of center. What’s wrong with this picture?

    Methinks someone doth protest too much.