10th December 2008

“Making fun of born-again Christians is like hunting dairy cows with a high powered rifle and scope.”

P.J. O'Rourke

7 Responses to “10th December 2008”

  1. Antitheist Says:

    I never make fun of anyone, that’s childish.
    I try to appeal to their sense of logic.
    That always fails, because they were programmed from birth.

    I am however, always amused at the rationalizations they come up with to make their skewed logic work. For instance…

    I tried to show an LDS (Mormon) believer that religious ‘free will’ was impossible. It is impossible for religious “free will” and an omniscient being to co-exist.

    If god knows everything, then he knows the outcome of every decision, prior to it being made. If the outcome of any decision is known or predetermined, prior to the decision of the person making it, then there was no choice or “free will” at all. “Free will” can only exist where the outcome is not known, predestined or predetermined. (from http://www.TheAtheistAdvocate.com)

    So, I broke out a napkin and drew a small tree, I made a circle on one of the termination spots and said, god knows I will end here, when all is said and done. He said, OK. Then I started at the trunk of the tree and when I reached a fork, I asked if I have a choice of going in either direction. He said YES. I said, NO, if god knows I will end up HERE, then I must travel toward HERE in the tree, if I detour, then god must not have known. Here’s the kicker…

    He rationalized by saying, god COULD know everything, but he chooses not to, so we can have free will! OMFG, are you kidding me. I walked away, not being able to win with PURE logic on my side, because he rationalized… WOW!!

  2. Chris Says:

    Thank god for the 2nd amendment!

  3. Tony Pro Says:

    Anti- Love the analogy. I love how easy it is to understand, and plan to use it.
    Chris- Don’t plan to use that solution, but can’t help but think about it! LOL!

  4. Oxymoronic Christhinker Says:

    The quote is hilarious! Making fun of one’s opponents is a time-honored way of ATTACKing their ideas!

    Anti: Perhaps God is not omniscient? Since for many theists God is omniscient by definition, maybe they need to rethink their definition of God and/or of freewill. Do you think freewill is compatible with evolution? An “unknown outcome” does not automatically mean one had feewill, though I agree that predestination and predeterminism preclude freewill. Is a truly freewill even possible?

  5. antitheist Says:

    Be careful, you’re starting to sound like a real theist. Of course free will is compatable with evolution. It’s actually part of it. All animals ‘choose’ who they mate with through a process called ‘natural selection’, including humans.

    I do have free will, but I didn’t get it from an invisible friend. Every choice I make is mine alone, and I reep the rewards or pay the consequences. But this only works for me and everyone else, because none of the outcomes are known to anyone, including your invisible friend.

    The point is simple, there is free will, there is NO god. If there were a god, there could be no free will. “Primitave Baptists” take this notion to the enth degree, in that they believe EVERYthing that happens is ‘gods will be done’ and therefore, they do nothing to change anything, because if it is to happen, god will make it happen.

    It is a simple concept, that in truth, logically defeats the fundamentalist in their tracks. Free will and the god of the bible cannot coexist. Period!

  6. Oxymoronic Christhinker Says:

    There is a difference between “the god of the bible” and god as defined by this or that believer/theologian. Read the Bible – Yahweh is hardly omniscient, and, apart from John’s Gospel and Revelation, neither does Jesus come across as particularly all-knowing. None of this necessarily means that some “being” we might call “god” doesn’t exist. Yet I agree that science suggests strongly that he/she/it does not exist, with the necessary disclaimer that “absense of evidence does not indicate evidence of absense.”

    Again, unknown outcomes – as in evolution (which I accept as a completely valid scientific truth) – do not necessarily or logically allow for something called freewill, if by that we mean the ability to make conscience choices. Dinosaurs did not “choose” to become birds, nor did our anscesters “choose’ to become human. Perhaps you mean to say that “freewill” functions truly only at the level of Nature? I don’t know.

    Personally, my choices “feel” free, though their consequences do not always line up with my conscience intent.

    I sound like a “real theist?” That is because I am!!!

  7. Oxymoronic Christhinker Says:

    BTW: The problem with most fundamentalists/literalists is that they neither read nor think. If they did they would not be fundamentalists. Thus your experience with the “rationalizing” member of the LDS.