24th December 2008

“Religion is mostly discussed, in the US political context, as if the main argument is between believers and non-believers. But the most important disagreement is between religious people who value the secular character of American politics and religious people who regard it as impious.”

James P. Carroll

8 Responses to “24th December 2008”

  1. antitheist Says:

    Ox,
    I would like to follow-up on your questions for yesterday’s quote.

    Your experience doesn’t count and I’ll try to explain why. Because if experiences were allowed to be entered into evidence, I would be married to Jennifer Lopez and live in a mansion with all the money I could ever use in two lifetimes. You see, I have this experience every time I dream. It is a fantasy, a fairytale that I experience because I choose to dream it. Even during the awake hours, I have this fantasy. Every once in a while, my dream is so realistic, I have an orgasm. Have you ever had a dream so real, the next day you confused it with reality? The difference is, I know it is a fantasy and in the morning, I shake it off, and continue with the life that is mine. I am very happy in my life, but I choose to fantasize occasionally. Simply because I choose to believe this experience while fantasizing will never make it reality.

    You choose to fantasize about a supreme being capable of great magic. One that can heal all wounds. One that can do anything at anytime. You enjoy your fantasy because it makes you feel great! It’s this ‘feeling’ you get that makes you call it real. But the truth is, you are the one who created the feeling. It’s the same dopamine being released into your body that makes you feel ‘head-over-heels’ googley-eyed in love. You are controling your own body fluids and getting ‘high’ from it. God makes you high, because you choose to allow it.

    This one is very easy to understand…
    If there were a god, any of the 200 available for man to worship, it would be very easy for him/her to drop in and say hi. That would pretty much stop all of god’s children from killing each other over who has the best god. As a parent, I would not allow my children to fight among themselves. God allows his/her children to kill each other by the thousands. All 200 gods are invisible, can’t speak aloud, leave no evidence, have great powers they never use, are war mongers, and in your case only cared about the Isrealites (the people who created him).

    So no Ox, sorry, but your love of something does not prove a thing. If you would like to introduce miracles as evidence, I submit this…

    If a man throws his child into the river, knowing he can’t swim, then in the nick of time, jumps in and saves him from drowning, he is no hero. He has a bad case of Munchousen by proxy. Every ‘miracle’ is based on a tragic event being corrected through divine intervention. If your god is responsible for ANYTHING, then he is responsible for EVERYTHING! So, he causes the tragity to begin with, then fixes it!?! I don’t think so. If it were a miracle, the tragity would never have existed to begin with. The power or force would have been there to stop it before it became a problem.

    I could go on and on, but if you are the theist who is unyielding, then I waste my time trying to deliver reverse evidence to deaf ears. I mention reverse evidence, because it is not I who need to show proof of anything, as I make no claims of supernatural anything!! You make the claim of a supernatural being with great powers, which should be easy enough to produce evidence for. In over 6,000 years of trying, no human being has ever produced anything but ancient writings and personal experience and feelings. For such a great claim of such an awesome being, one would think you could provide something concrete, just ONE ‘objective’ irrefutable piece of evidence that doesn’t originate from scripture.

    Happy Winter Solstice Everyone – and Merry Christmas Ox

    Out of respect for you as a human being. See, I respect you, hell, I even like you. I just think you’re wrong and you and all your theist friends can’t back up the claims. Your god has left you hangin’ in the breeze with only a tall tale to tell.

    Whew, I’m out of breath! Sorry for being verbose. I thought it necessary to get the point across without the words being misconscrewed.
    🙂

  2. John Sutton Says:

    Who cares – most of us don’t live in the USA anyway.

  3. Terence Meaden Says:

    “This one is very easy to understand…
    If there were a god, any of the 200 available for man to worship, it would be very easy for him/her to drop in and say hi. …… ”

    I think that in the course of prehistory and history many millions of gods have been invented.
    Everyone was and is a fraud, and existed or exist only INSIDE human heads.
    Even within christianity, the number of christian-god variants is huge—some 38,000 in fact.

  4. Terence Meaden Says:

    “Comment by Alex Donovan on 21 December 2008 at 11:49am
    The Worldwide Council of Churches once had statistics on its website.
    It was somewhere around 38,000 denominations, last time I checked.
    You’d think that since they all claim ‘divine guidance by the Holy Spirit,’ they’d get their act together and agree on something.”

    I thought the above comment might be worth forwarding. It came from

    http://www.atheistnexus.org/group/originsuniverselifehumankindanddarwin

    where much more can be found.

  5. The Atheist Advocate Says:

    John, that’s pretty selfish of you isn’t it?
    I’ll tell you who cares, it should be everybody, since injustice to anyone, anywhere, is injustice to everyone, everywhere!

    Let’s see, out of curiosity, where everyone is from, specifically:

    I live and work in North Carolina, USA. How about it folks, where are you from?

  6. BoomerChick Says:

    John S.,
    I am an Atheist in the USA, a daily reader of and occasional contributor to the AQOD.

    JS, I was taken aback by the insouciance of your comment. I understand that this can be a trying time for Atheists with all the Christmas cheer and such. It’s enough to make even the happiest Atheist cringe. So I hope that you were just venting some misplaced frustration.

    I have actually visited and read parts of your website and found your reporting of events from across the pond very interesting. For example the Humanist Society in Washington, DC followed suit with the UK’s bus poster campaign with signs that say (to paraphrase) ‘Have fun this season – there’s probably no god anyway’.

    You must know that this internet thing is global. I even have it in Maryland, USA. So please draw upon your ethical system based on logic (not magic as in godbots) and reach out to all Atheists especially during this Solstice season.

    Sincerely, BoomerChick and my ENGLISH Bull Terrier named God.

    P.S.
    ADMIN.: Any demographical info for us?

  7. Chris Says:

    Livermore, CA U.S.A.

    Anti – very nice response and points well made. Can God do anything? His miracles are parsimonious at best! He makes some “feel” his presence in their “hearts” yet lifts not a toe to stop all the bickering and bloodshed undertaken in His name. This alone makes it almost conclusive that He is closest in nature to the Islamicidal Allah! Makes the occasional statue cry but doesn’t see fit to cure (or better prevent) a child’s cancer. Are all blind people unworthy of His grace? Is an amputation a symbol that you lack God’s favor? Must be, since he’s not ever cured any of these.

    When Stephen Hawking can speak with his own voice, a spontaneous and utterly unexplainable cure of his hideous ALS, perhaps more of us would have reason to think there might be something to this God thing.

  8. Chris Says:

    P.S. – we just got our first family pet – labradoodle named Darwin. Yeah, would have been better if he was a beagle.