28th December 2009

“Churches are self-constituted civil society organisations like trades unions, and are entitled to have their say, but no more than any other such institution.”

A.C. Grayling

11 Responses to “28th December 2009”

  1. Holysmokes Says:

    Really, then why don’t they pay property taxes? Sounds like favoritism.

  2. CaptainZero1969 Says:

    You’re right, Holy. Clearly they occupy some favored position, even when governments are officially secular. The question is why? You can (and they do) make the argument that there are charitable purposes to their work. There is a lot of truth to that. But, if you are a charity, why do so many of your leaders live in palaces and mansions? Would this kind of tax-free largess be tolerated in a non-religious charity that has an obligation to open its books to public scrutiny?

    Evangelist TV preachers and the Catholic church seem like the two most standout examples of what this is all really about – money and power.

  3. FSM_Ed Says:

    They can have their “say” when they pay their taxes.

  4. Holysmokes Says:

    Hello Solomon,

    Yes, I think having your god bring us directly to this place of 72 virgins for review would be an excellent start to show his validity. Yes, I also think that your god popping his face in sky would also be a great start. I am impressed with your suggestions. I say, bring on the miracles! Make believers of us with genuine godlike acts. Let’s have him do something only a god could, at least from our point of view. Perhaps he could temporarily make the moon spin at a high RPM, or change it’s color. Things like that would get my attention. Is that too much to ask of a real god? Perhaps. However, when he does nothing at all like all the other gods before him, then you should understand my skepticism. You may as well be worshipping, Zeus, Apollo, Athena or any other god created by man. They all have exactly the same resume’.

    You seem to think people would make fun of his appearance. Hardly, for if he is a real god, then:
    1. People would not dare out of respect.
    2. He could simply prevent it by using his powers.
    I for one, do not understand why drawing or making a picture of this god is a bad thing. People should be allowed to worship and idolize any legitimate god. Such acts should be sent, and taken, as a compliment.

    You state that it is absurd that an atheist cannot see evidence of a god. Well then call me absurd, but I sure as heck don’t see any. I DO see things that are as yet unexplained, just as millions of people over the ages have. Yet, slowly but surely, science is explaining them. How about that? And they come fully equipped with evidence! Amazing! I think we can both show hundreds of examples on this topic, so I’ll move on. For the record, every single example you gave IS understandable and explainable, except your instant seed-to-tree example, yet you refuse to accept them. If I were to see a seed suddenly turn into a full grown tree, I would wonder how that occurred and attempt to find out. Funny, but to my knowledge it has never happened before. I wonder why? Perhaps it is a lack of a god, or at least one who cannot validate his existence? You really shouldn’t use examples that your god has not performed in a scientific setting Solomon. How do you know he is able too? Do you think that science will be able to perform that seed-to-tree feat as well some day?

    If your god were magically appear out of thin air, I would be awestruck and then wonder how he is able to do that. Obviously it can be done, because he will have just done it, right? If your god came to earth instead of hiding in the shadows like every single god thru-out history, he would begin to have legitimacy. Yes, absolutely he would and should be required to validate himself and his abilities. Yet he does not. By your comments, you seem in awe of the natural world, and I agree that we all should be. This planet, and indeed the viewable universe is a wondrous thing. To say that a god is required as the only possible explanation for it’s existence is ridiculous. I have little doubt that science will explain more about the natural world as time progresses. Stay tuned.

    I don’t know about Muslims, but many Christians seem to think that it is impossible for living matter to be created solely from nonliving matter. I wonder how they will react someday in the future when science figures that out? Make no mistake, it will eventually happen. Tell me Solomon, when that happens, will that make us gods as well? I think not. It will simply make us more able creatures and nothing more. At what point then is a living thing catapulted to a god status? How much knowledge and ability must he or she have? I do not think that any level is acceptable. This being you address as god, what are his capabilities? Is he a living thing or something else? His willingness to allow 35,000 children to die daily on this planet is interesting. Perhaps he blames us for being so greedy. Now that I understand and would agree with. Yet he allows it of us none-the-less. Interesting.

    As I stated regarding the Hindu’s. It is not their ridiculous beliefs, but rather your attitude towards them. You have no more evidence regarding a god than they do, yet you chastise and insult them for the way they go about it. You think their methodology is ass-backwards, but perhaps they think the same of yours. The word hypocrite comes to mind. Think about it. If you are going to insist a god exists, than cough up some evidence. The burden of evidence resides in your court Solomon. Bringing up the natural world in wonderment is not evidence. You may think so, but it truly isn’t.

    It may surprise you that I do agree with most of your comments regarding the religions people follow. Yes, many are afraid to change. Even fewer are willing to see the 100% complete lack of logic in following any in the first place. Fortunately science is changing that as well. All the “lowering of my voice” and asking god for favors will not change that. I genuinely hope that someday you find the ability to see that I speak the truth. Religions and faith are a crutch that does little more than allow people to kill each other in the name of their gods, while giving them peace-of-mind. So you think you have the chance to go to heaven and live with all these virgins? I wonder what they think about having only one man between them?

    I do enjoy discussing these things with you Solomon. It enlightens me as to just how indoctrinated you are. It is unfortunate, but I get the impression that perhaps someday you will see the light. That light is much simpler than you think. It involves science, logic and evidence. Give it a try. I think you will be a much happier person for it. However, if you are insistent upon believing as you do, then at least be more tolerant of others who do not. People should learn to live and get along with each other. Please pass that tidbit of knowledge along to your more radical believers. I would think that even your god would call that the right thing to do.

  5. CaptainZero1969 Says:

    I found out when I woke up this morning that I can do anything that God can do. Since I still haven’t seem him, it’s possible that I am, in fact God. I can make a seed grow into a tree in an instant. I can rotate the moon so that we can see the dark side (for a little change of pace). I can even get universal public healthcare passed in the U.S. Senate. No problem at all and before breakfast. Neat as you please. Go ahead, test me! You need me to violate natural laws to prove myself, bring it on.

  6. solomon Says:

    Dear CaptainZero1969,
    You are not awaken. You are still dreaming. And keep on dreaming until you see the fires of hell.

  7. 2cents Says:

    Solomon,

    It’s good to see that you haven’t lost your sense of humor even though your views are contrary to many who post in this discussion. I just want to thank you for making me laugh.

  8. solomon Says:

    Dear Holysmokes,
    God does not work as what your imagination wants it to be. Now who’s the boss? Surely he would want things to work out his way. And he only work out things with reasons. We might not understand a lot of things. Like when you were small. When your grandma said “ Holysmokes! don’t play around near that bush”. Now can you relate this parable. Its too much or off limit for one who even deny his signs to order god to show himself up. Who are we to put things as we pleases? Who are we which originate from a disdain water (sperm) aspects god, the purest, the highest entity to appear before us. God have shown us signs, god have make known of his existence, what more do we want? Indeed you are the off limit lots.
    Most humans does not have the purity, the standards for god to even have a glimpse of their faces. Most of them are the ungrateful lot who dare to say “he does nothing at all like all the other gods before him”. Are they blind or just plain fools? God have poured water from the sky for them to drink, have supplied them with abundance of meat, vegetables, cereals. God have given them life, have supplied them with clean air where they can straight away breath without undergoing purification process. The only evidence you are waiting for to force his existence are the fires of Hell! They go around blindly, without knowledge and campaigning as if science is the most highest proof one can hold to. Let me tell you, science is nothing to the eyes of god, he himself create science and surely science cannot surpass more than what god knows. Science is just a tiny system or knowledge outlined by god to test his creations, yet the atheist regard it as the highest media to boast around to defy god.
    Science or the Christians seems to be out of date or backward when you mention something about the impossibility for living matter to be created solely from nonliving matter. Hear this:
    (He brings out the living from the dead, and brings out the dead from the living. And He revives the earth after its death. And thus shall you be brought out (resurrected).) (Sûrat Ar-Rûm- verse 19). Ant this:
    (Verily! It is Allah who causes the seed-grain and the fruit-stone (like date-stone) to split and sprout. He brings forth the living from the dead, and it is He who brings forth the dead from the living. Such is Allah, then how are you deluded away from the truth?) (Sûrat Al-An’âm- verse 95).
    And also this:
    (Look then at the effects (results) of Allah’s Mercy: how He revives the earth after its death. Verily, that (Allah) (Who revived the earth after its death) shall indeed raise the dead (on the Day of Resurrection), and He is Able to do all things.) (Sûrat Ar-Rûm- verse 50).
    You see god have in advance knew all these things. Does all these sounds like it was written by human? And all these words did not come without proof. You can refer to an article which was published in the “Guardian newspaper” dated (12/6/2008)about some dates which are 2000 years old, as the scientists found them in the castle of an old king in Jordon. Then they started to sow it to make it grow up and it grew!! Scientists were astonished about that, so they started to study this phenomenon but unfortunately they got nothing. After studying of these seeds they found that the seed contains a special program to make it ready to back again to life at any time.
    Scientists were asking, who put these programs? How did it get the power to back again to life just when it finds water? How the seed can produce the same plant as the palm seed produce palm tree and the grape seed produce grapes tree? Who taught those seeds to do that job without any mistake? The answer is Allah almighty.
    I don’t have to listen or reply to the rest of your comments Holysmokes, coz they only contain only denial without real points to ponder. I’am sure true viewers will agree.

  9. solomon Says:

    Dear 2cents,
    Thank you for your compliments. Its nice to see someone laughing at your comments that is not meant to be a laughing matter.

  10. CaptainZero1969 Says:

    Oh Sol, you have me rolling. One thing you ought to know, however. Most of the people that frequent this site do not fear hell for the simple reason that it doesn’t exist. You might as well threaten us with the Chupacabra, the Boogey Man or The Blue Man Group (wait…that last one might be real). Seriously, the more times you write “hell”, the less credibility you have.

  11. solomon Says:

    Dear CaptainZero1969,
    Yes you do not fear hell not because it does’nt exist, its because you have not come to it yet. You are telling me about that Goatsucker stuffs to me, what’s your point? Don’t you have any other concrete argument to bring forth. Its you or the the one whose been repeating “hell” that has less credibility?