11th January 2010

“Church-run schools can be free to state what various religions teach about homosexuality, but they should, by law, be refrained from teaching that those religions' abhorrence of homosexuality is in fact objectively true.”

Joint Committee on Human Rights

45 Responses to “11th January 2010”

  1. Holysmokes Says:

    This quote sounds great on paper, however how would a school like that go about explaining their position verses objective truth regarding homosexuality? How would it get policed?

  2. CaptainZero1969 Says:

    Nice sounding unenforcible tripe. Better is to expose bigoted thinking to public scrutiny and scorn. You can’t control what malevolent priests teach their besotted flock but you can sue individuals when they ACT on their idiotic prejudices.

    Did I really read a post yesterday stating that people that have lost limbs were not healed because they deserved to loose them? I give up. You can’t argue with that level of stupid, immoral, heartless, pious, twisted and fuck-all crazy excuse for thinking.

    A child steps on a friggin land mine and it blows off his foot. God won’t heal him BECAUSE HE HAD IT COMING. Astounding. Simply unbelievable. I now believe that this idiot is having a laugh because there is simply no one who could hold such a position and deserve to be considered human.

  3. Oxymoronic Christhinker Says:

    Agree with Holysmokes and the Cap’n on the quote.

  4. solomon Says:

    Dear viewers,
    Witness this guy ‘Oxymoronic Christhinker’ losing his nerves & sanity due to out of argument.

  5. solomon Says:

    Dear Oxymoronic Christhinker,
    “I hope and pray that no children will ever be influenced by this brain dead lump of pig excrement.”
    To whom are you praying??
    To your lousy evolution god?
    Now you have nobody to pray or hope to. To HELL is where youre going.

  6. Admin Says:

    Dear all,

    Just a polite reminder that I would much prefer to see an exchange of arguments on this site, rather than an exchange of insults.

    The arguments are always interesting whereas the insults just escalate and I’d hate to have to start moderating your posts.

    BTW I thought the flaw in today’s quote was the JCoHRs use of the term “objectively true”. I can’t see any religion accepting what they mean by it.

  7. solomon Says:

    All you ATHEIST,

    If you think I made up why god does not heal amputees then tell me straight to my face WHY GOD DID’NT HEAL AMPUTEES??
    I’am not surprise by the answer you will reply.

  8. SB Says:

    Actually religions’ “abhorrence” of homosexuality is in fact objectively true, in that many religions do find it abhorrent. What they have is no ethical basis to do so. As in all things religious, dogma triumphs over reason. Personally I think faith schools should be banned and all education should be state run and secular, but what are the chances?

  9. Hypatia Says:

    Personally I think faith schools should be banned

    I wouldn’t go that far – I just wish I didn’t have to pay for them (we do in the UK)

  10. PEB Says:

    1 in 3 schools in the UK are religiously based. The overwhelming majority of those schools are heavily monitored by OFSTED and would be shut down the moment they told pupils that their religion means homosexuals are doomed to hell.

    It is the rise of privately sponsored academy faith schools that is the big concern. These schools are exempt from the national curriculum and are free to teach (or is that preach?) anything they want.

    That could include their religions (i.e. parents) opinion on gay people, flood theory and the dreaded creationism nonsense. The “theory” of evolution is taught as someone else’s beliefs rather than fact.

    There are also state sponsored Muslim faith schools monitored by OFSTED. One very recently was found to have links to a violent Islamic radical group called Hizb ut-Tahrir. Maybe not a topic we want to cover today!

    Segregated schooling needs to be stopped.

    http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/faithschoolsban/

  11. Hypatia Says:

    Sol,

    I hate to break this to you, but the more loudly and confidently you proclaim about your god the more desperate and unconvincing you sound.

    I’m sure you would agree that man has invented many gods over the millennia. What makes yours different?

  12. LlangunlloRick Says:

    Perhaps we should make it clear to our American friends that most of our U.K. ‘faith based” scholls are, happily, only faith based in name and there is little actual indoctrination in them. Sadly some are not just nominally associated with a religion.

    It was during a succession of boring but brief school assemblies that I escaped from societal religion into rationality. I cannot think that my case is unusual.

    I have taught in C. of E., Catholic and Jewish state schools and the religion was very watered down stuff and hardly affected the children. The home influence far far outweighed anything the religios imagined that they were doing.

    I have never worked in a school age madrassa but I have worked in Saudi Arabia and any school that was funded even in small part from there would really worry me. The only place in Britain that makes me anxious is that scandous school in Gateshead.

  13. PEB Says:

    LlangunlloRick, do you mean the christian school that was caught teaching it’s kids that the earth is only a few thousand years old?

    That particular school was funded by Sir Peter Vardy who famously said “I don’t believe my ancestors were monkeys. Where do monkeys come from? If we come from monkeys — where did they start?”

    Very worrying indeed. This person was in the news very recently as he has decided to close his car dealerships on a Sunday (so the staff can have some ‘family time’). Nothing to do with the current economic climate then!

    When the economy picks up then expect a Vardy dealership open on a Sunday near you!

  14. tech Says:

    Lord grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change ,the courage to change the I can and the wisdom to know the difference.

  15. Holysmokes Says:

    One change within your control is the ability to open your mind. Give it a try. Perhaps looking at scientific evidence will get you thinking.

  16. tech Says:

    I read some of the thinking science has caused. Its “RUBBISH”

  17. solomon Says:

    Dear Hypatia,
    I appreciate that you are the one who has the courage or balls to discuss on faith matters while the others seems to chicken out or pretend to ignore. Your request for clarification on my gods difference will be dealth at some other times god willing.

  18. tony cynic Says:

    Well and truly time to send Sol to the ignore list.
    Bye. Won’t miss you.

  19. Holysmokes Says:

    Why Tech, …I’m a bit disappointed in your answer. Just remember, each time you touch a key on your keyboard, it is science that allows you do it. Why do you feel that all science is rubbish? Do you have any examples?

  20. solomon Says:

    Dear Hypatia,
    Men have invented many gods but our god ;
    1. is not invented
    2. exist and comparable to nothing
    3. make known of his existence thru his prophets
    4. creates the heavens & the earth & everything in it
    5. is not an idol like any other imaginary gods
    6. is most gracious & most merciful
    and many other qualities which will be shared later.

  21. Holysmokes Says:

    As unusual, every claim made by Solomon is missing one key ingredient, evidence.

  22. tech Says:

    What evidence do you have that there is no God?

  23. tech Says:

    You talk about science,has science given you any solid proof that God doesn’t exist? I’ll be one of the first to say that I can’t give you any scientific proof. I just know he does.

  24. MagicAintReal Says:

    You can’t prove a negative. Tech, do you believe in unicorns or dragons or the Boogy Man?
    If no, why not? There is no proof of their non-existence so I could say that my gut feeling telss me that they do exist and that there is some random written text that confirms my hunch thus Dragons are real.
    Solomon- In your opinion, what is the liklihood that the two exact same (not similar, but exact) telomeres-amino acids and all-from two different ape chromosomes that appear in human’s second chromosome is actually not from the ape and in fact from another source?
    Please, I want YOUR opinion, not some other article’s.

  25. 2cents Says:

    Tech,

    Just knowing something is fine. But how do you discriminate? There are a lot of people in mental institutions who fully believe they are god. And they claim they just know it. BTW I’m not saying you belong in an institution.

  26. CaptainZero1969 Says:

    Sigh. Again, Science cannot prove there isn’t a God. There haven’t been any here (that I know of) that have made that claim. The burden of proof rests with the theists. What we say, generally, is that there’s no reason to believe in something for which there is no evidence.

    You require evidence for lots of things you believe to be true. We’re no different. We just require it of religion as well. It’s not that we’re stubborn or willful. The difference between you and I, it seems to me, is that for purely emotional reasons you are able to turn off the normal inclination to dismiss incredible stories unless substantial evidence is offered. I’m not. I have my vices but turning off my default setting of skepticism is not one of them.

    I guess I’m “so made that I cannot believe”. Thus, my disbelief is god’s doing, if such a being exists.

  27. Holysmokes Says:

    Hi Tech,

    I am glad to hear that you admit to having no evidence. Baby steps are always a good start. It’s a pity that you cannot get Solomon to understand that reality.

    As we have discussed before, the burden-of-proof is in your court, not mine. Having said that however, I shall humor you. I think we can both agree that the only thing you have in your favor is a collection of old books, which were put together, or canonized by Constantine some 1700 or so years ago. We can begin by examining the numerous apparent errors and contradictions in the Christian bible. While I personally don’t see this as evidence, perhaps it will help you understand why we find your “I just know he exists” philosophy a bit hard to swallow. Let us start by asking a few basic questions.

    1. Which version of the bible do you use, King James, Gideon etc?
    2. Using chronologic back-stepping, roughly how old does your bible say the earth is?
    3. Who merged the books of the bible together?
    4. Who chose what made it into the final biblical draft and what didn’t?
    5. When were these books merged?
    6. Who wrote the only four gospels that made it into the bible?
    7. When were these gospels written?
    8. How many languages was the bible written in?
    9. Have any corrections been made to the bible since it was introduced?
    10. How many years elapsed before Jesus supposedly lived until the gospels were written?
    11. Why is there not a single Roman log entry made regarding a person named Jesus during the time in which he supposedly lived? For the record, the Romans were meticulous record keepers.
    12. Who or what exactly says the bible is written in the hand of god?
    13 What authority, (in writing) decided that the bible was the authority on all things godly?
    14. Do you believe the bible to be, “without error?”

    Please answer as many of these as you can. After which we can discuss your answers.

  28. Hypatia Says:

    solomon:

    Men have invented many gods but our god…

    Many people have claimed these things about their god. The only thing special about yours is that it’s the one you were brought up with!

    If you had been born in a different country you would probably be a devout Hindu or Sikh or Buddhist. And the funny thing is that you would still be posting claims that your religion was better than anyone else’s!

  29. Greg Says:

    Solomon, God doesn’t “cure” amputees because there’s no God. This, in my view, is the most rational, logical and SANE explanation. But you go ahead and make stuff up if you want…..

  30. tech Says:

    I never came on this site to try and convert anyone. I’m not a preacher, I know the bible. I wasn’t brought up with this belief. I don’t fell that I need to prove anything to anyone. I’m happy serving God.I will not waste my time trying to do Gods job and thats to convict sinners as he sees fit.More on all of that later . For now I have to go.

  31. Holysmokes Says:

    Pity, …I would like to have heard his answers.

  32. Greg Says:

    Holysmokes, I wouldn’t wait for a response from tech on any of the questions you’ve asked. I’ve been waiting for days for him to answer one simple one from me. He seems to have lost his nerve.

  33. John Says:

    Both tech and solomon asked what proof is there that there is no god? I say… I saw the preachers lips moving and I know it’s all bull!

  34. Greg Says:

    In a different vein, I was sent the following recently and wanted to share it with everyone on the site. You may have seen it before but I think it perfectly states what many of us – even Sol and Tech? – believe and/or feel about the emerging (widening?) radicalism within various religions – Islam in particular, but by no means limited to Islam.

    http://bibleprobe.com/Emanuel-Tanay.pdf

    Just to clarify, I’m not anti-religious. I’m anti-stupid. If you’re going to make claims about the existence of God at least have the honesty to acknowledge that there’s no physical proof and all that all you base your belief on is “faith”.

  35. CaptainZero1969 Says:

    Greg – that was a great little read. Thanks for the post. Dr. Tanay articulates very well a concern I share about fanaticism.

  36. Oxymoronic Christhinker Says:

    Greg: Thanks for the link. This expresses my own theistic concern with the weak responses from moderate, liberal, and progressive theists to our extremist brothers and sisters. It does people like me (or you) no good to simply and simplistically claim that these people are not “real” Jews, Christians, or Muslims. They emphatically are real theists. One point I would like to make, however, is that the media – liberal or conservative, secular or religious – often over reports the bad (death and destruction make “good” TV, reading, etc…) and under reports the good. I do not say this as an excuse, but merely as one more more piece of data to take into consideration when assessing the “silence” of peaceful religionists.

    Admin: Point taken. I will keep my disgust at the statements of Solomon to myself and restrain myself from further insults directed at his ilk.

    Greg, Cap’n, and Holysmokes: I hear your questions and would like to respond to at least some of them in due time. I am working on a response that won’t require an inordinate amount of space here on AQOTD. It may be that such a response will have to made as a series of responses over the course of regular AQOTD comments and debates. For now, know that I do in fact acknowledge that it is at the very least doubtful that there is now or will ever be absolute, unquestionable, scientifically verifiable evidence and/or proof of the existence or non-existence of what human beings have called God(s). And – in case you hadn’t noticed – I am vehemently and radically opposed to the kind of “god” witnessed to and assumed by Solomon and tech.

  37. solomon Says:

    Dear Holymokes,

    Are you plain DUMB? How many times I have to explain? All you ask for is evidence. Do you want a slap on your face to make you wake up? Even if god sits in front of you & touches your nose you would’nt recognise him. He’s comparable to nothing!! Well I guess thats the evidence youre looking for. Kah…kah…kah….

  38. tony cynic Says:

    Nice article Greg, might print a few out at work and spread the word.

  39. Bornagain A. Theist Says:

    solomon:

    I perhaps seem quiet (per your comment) because I do not spend a great deal of time on just this site. It certainly has nothing to do with not wishing to face your bodacious rebuttal. I am stunned, frankly. I never expected an answer which would actually support and confirm the often held belief by atheists that IF the god of the bible were real, that he is a malicious, hateful, spiteful demon worthy only of the contempt of all of his creation.

    The very idea that a creator would create beings that he knew were going to be so evil (those babies) that he dismembered them at the very beginning of their life…. well, this is just so amazing that it defies explanation.

    In one simple explanation, you have proven that original sin must indeed begin in the womb and, perhaps more strikingly, that mankind has NO free will. That is amazing.

    Sir, I never expected this conversation to fall to the depths of name calling and therefore, I will certainly not be one to do so; however, I expect that someone reading this site believes you to be a blithering idiot for suggesting that a Lizard prays to have his limbs restored.

    Clearly, you did not take time to read and try to comprehend what is being presented in http://www.whywontgodhealamputees.com Many of us have taken the time to read and try to comprehend the bible. Will you simply ignore the opportunity to “get inside the enemy’s head” by outright refusing to spend the time?

  40. Bornagain A. Theist Says:

    Tech:

    Whoa, dude. Did you say, “I know the Bible” and then say “For now, I have to go”? Now you’ve got some ‘splainin’ to do. The bible commands that you put up with stonings like Paul did, if necessary, to spread the message. Man, answering Holysmokes questions is paramount to keeping the “faith”. What would Paul say?

    Hey, since you know the bible, I’ve got a really simple question. When Jesus said, “ask me anything and I will do it for you.”, he was just bullshitting, right? I mean there have been billions and billions of worthy prayers for things like world peace, and cure for cancer.. oh, shoot, the list just goes on and on. All the while, I notice that he DOES get directly involved in football games and stuff. Players are frequently crossing themselves, making funny gestures into the sky and clearly saying that it was the god dude who made everything happen – right? …. well, I just don’t know what make of it all… Help me out here.

    BAT

  41. solomon Says:

    Dear Bornagain A. Theist,
    Did I or did’nt I mention;
    (maybe god have already know if god heals this baby he will grow up &
    misuse gods gifts by doing all kinds of mischiefs & commiting all sorts of sins). I mention the word maybe. But your boastful Atheist scholars blantanly curse god for blaming him not to heal amputees.
    If you look closely at my statement
    “God rather answer the prayers of LIZARDS when their tails are amputated.”
    is first refering to your request for proof or evidence that god is not capable of healing amputed body parts of beings and secondly I did not suggest that a Lizard prays to have his limbs restored, but god out of his graciousness & knowledge rather heal the amputated lizards tail with or without the lizards having to pray for it.

  42. Bornagain A. Theist Says:

    But you just SAID “answers the prayers of Lizards” You just SAID it.

    The question is not whether god is capable of healing amputees, it is why he refuses to do so. You have said, if I’m not screwing up your response here, that the reason may very well be that he is disabling them from some future horrific crime.

    Using that logic, why doesn’t he destroy the Catholic church? They systematically murder millions of people every year by teaching them that condoms are sinful and thereby spreading disease, including aids to those millions. This is a far more grave matter than the ability of a lizard to regrow it’s tail. Gads, sharks regrow teeth, you and I regrow skin and hair: There are a lot of evolved behaviors that mimic what the ancients thought of as miracles.

    Honestly, without reverting to the old standard line that “nobody can know the mind of god”, what do you, in your heart of hearts, think of the actions of your god that you justify. Do you really believe that baby’s are born with predisposed evil? Really? Do you?

    If you do, WHY do you?

    BAT

  43. solomon Says:

    Dear Bornagain A. Theist,
    You said ;”In one simple explanation, you have proven that original sin must indeed begin in the womb and, perhaps more strikingly, that mankind has NO free will.” Don’t simply draft a statement and made it look like it is originated from me.
    God have already know what events are going to happen, what would become of oneself & so on but god give human ‘CHOICE’ or free will. The TRUE & the WRONG choice. But most human chooses the later ones. Sin does not begin in the womb. Sin begins after one chooses the wrong choice after puberty & after knowledge have come to them. So treat my earlier explanation as two seperate argument. 1. Being gods plan on any events that is to take place and 2. The adjustments god would make to those events depending on the choices one make.

  44. solomon Says:

    Dear Bornagain A. Theist,
    Did I or did’nt I mention ‘rather’ on the lizards argument?
    Whats the fuss about disabling someone from some future horrific crime. Maybe on gods knowledge & consideration he has prepare for him a good reward in the endless afterlife rather than left him with all the sins in this short life on earth after healing his amputated limbs.
    For your other doubt I think I have explained it on my comments above.

  45. Greg Says:

    Solomon, you wrote “Sin does not begin in the womb. Sin begins after one chooses the wrong choice after puberty & after knowledge have come to them”

    You can’t sin before puberty?