28th January 2010
“Fundamentalists are so afraid of freedom. The deity they believe in is one whose morals are like any sociopathic despot's: toe its line, obey, don't commit a thought-crime or it will chuck you into a lake of fire for all eternity. Do these worshippers ever think how they would judge a human who was such a sadistic tyrant as this nightmarish torturer-god?”
Juliette Hughes
January 28th, 2010 at 1:20
Religions take great pains to instill in their flock this avoidance of self reflection. The quote provides a fine analogy that is easily accessible to anyone who is not blinkered by habits of thinking drilled into the minds of the fundamentalist. In my opinion, fundamentalist religions cause brain damage in an observable way. There are people that reclaim their full faculties but these stories are rare and is thus testimony to the effectiveness of the brainwashing.
January 28th, 2010 at 1:28
Some do; perhaps many. A few realize that they have been incorrectly led and refuse to be led any longer. They become non believers.
Once a person uses their mind rather than continuing to believe in mythology, they are willing to start with a fresh slate and investigate if they are able to rebuild the “faith” they once had based on reason and evidence rather than hearsay.
In every case the honest enquirer will find that there is no evidence and will make themselves happy with honest understanding and freedom from the imaginary horrors that the Bible and its advocates promises. In this case, that fundamentalist will cease to be afraid of freedom, at long last.
BAT
January 28th, 2010 at 1:52
I agree many give up the faith thing but I suspect that of this group not many were truly fundamentalist. Just a supposition. I’d prefer you be right, BAT. For fundys, giving up the ghost involves much more than a change of world view but usually giving up family, friends and spouses.
January 28th, 2010 at 1:54
Evolution is 100 percent and I have use`d up all the step`s on this plain. My focus now is on what happens next ,an open conciouse to everything ,all door`s wide open . Free thought tell`s me to move on , as long as we do that we are on the right path. The Universe will take care of everything .Truck on forward and leave the rest behind.
January 28th, 2010 at 2:16
Hey, QOTD, I just found this “Motivational Poster” and I thought you would like it.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1047723/Christians.jpg
BAT
January 28th, 2010 at 2:33
Dear Noreflection,
Evolution is yet to be a proven HALUCINATION & up to date it have prooved nothing.
January 28th, 2010 at 2:38
I think Solomon might be the missing link! Sol, how heavily do your knuckles drag on the ground when you saunter around your cave?
January 28th, 2010 at 2:47
Greg – Sol is doing the best she can with the education she received. She deserves our pity rather than insults. It can’t have been easy for her to learn to read, much less use a computer given Islamic attitudes toward teaching girls.
Cap’nZ
January 28th, 2010 at 2:53
Cap’nZ, perhaps you’re right. I should be more gentle with her. From now on I’ll veil my comments.
January 28th, 2010 at 4:28
Dear Bornagain A. Theist,
3. I’ve gone thru the “Motivational Poster”.
2. Most of it starts with the word ‘YOU’ as if to imply that the Christians are the ones who make the claim whereas its the author that is creating the wild claims.
1. Why don’t you try ‘Ten Signs You Are un Unquestioning Muslim’ & lets see how motivational it is.
January 28th, 2010 at 4:35
Greg, Capt’n & the others just did’nt have the argument to really challenge what truth have offered.Put forth anything from science to mystique and lets start a debate on it if youre the man of truth?
I’ll bet you’ll chicken out.
January 28th, 2010 at 5:06
The Atheist=products of the Lowest(lower than livestock) being
January 28th, 2010 at 6:00
“Man has no free will,” Phelps says. “The savior says, if you think you got free will, grow a foot and a half.”
Yeah…its true. I kinda like this guy.
January 28th, 2010 at 6:21
A billion people believing a lie doesn’t make it the truth, Sol.
You’re out-classed on this forum, girl. You might want to try to argue with school children.
January 28th, 2010 at 6:24
I’m glad you like Phelps, Sol. I desperately hope you and some of your Muslim friends pay a visit to his church – assuming you can read a map.
I’d like to see how long you last in red-neck country. They hate you and your religion more than they hate atheists.
Funny you haven’t picked up on that yet.
January 28th, 2010 at 6:50
Livestock is the lowest being Sol? How did you come to that conclusion?
January 28th, 2010 at 6:54
Bornagain, that was a great link. I’ve seen it before, but it’s good for a reminder of just what we’re up against.
BTW, I watched a pretty appropriate movie tonight called “The Invention of Lying”. I didn’t know anything about the movie, but the message was pretty good. I think most on this forum would enjoy it.
January 28th, 2010 at 8:02
CHECKED OUT THAT MOTIVATIONAL POSTER ,IT READS THE TRUTH ,, A CLOSED MIND WILL SOON SUFFOCATE , THAT EXPLAINS EVERYTHING .STAY LOCKED UP IN YOUR CHURCHES AS LONG AS YOU WANT.AND IN NO TIME AT ALL ,YOU WILL ALL BE SO BRAIN DEAD , YOU WILL HAVE FORGOTTEN HOW TO TURN THE DOOR KNOB TO GET OUT. I FOLLOW THE LINE ,I KNOW NOTHING BUT I BELIEVE IN EVERYTHING .SOCRATES SAID ,, NOW LISTEN CLOSELY,, THERE IS IGNORANCE AND THEN THERE IS DOUBLE IGNORANCE .WE ARE ALL IGNORANT AS WE DO NOT KNOW EVERYTHING, BUT DOUBLE IGNORANCE IS THE LACK OF EVEN TRYING TO LEARN WHAT YOU DO NOT KNOW. AND THE ONE THING THAT SCARE`S ME THE MOST IS JUST THAT ,NoReflection for a Reason. IGNORANCE LEAD`S TO DEATH.
January 28th, 2010 at 8:57
To all the Atheist,
Who create your head and from the head comes the eye to see, the ears to hear, the mouth to speak & finally but not least the Brain to think. And suddenly this created Brain thinks he’s not created.
January 28th, 2010 at 9:06
Dear Greg,
“Livestock is the lowest being Sol? How did you come to that conclusion?”
That was just a figure of speech. Can’t you differentiate or you don’t have anything signficant to comment?
January 28th, 2010 at 9:15
DEAR Noreflection,
TRIPLE IGNORANCE WILL JUST BE KNOWING THE TRUTH BUT HURRIEDLY RUN AWAY FROM IT.
January 28th, 2010 at 12:36
Solomon
You presumeably have a head, so can see and hear the plethora of uncontrovertable, physical and tangible evidence for evolution. So, are you just ignoring it, or are you of the opinion that Allah fakes it to trap us faithless heathens?
January 28th, 2010 at 13:07
Tech,s Statement: I can,t speak for anyone other than myself, but after reading most of the posts over the last 2 months I have come to this conclusion. Nobody on this site knows the meaning of a real Christian. A Real Christian is “A Christian is so one who has desided to entrust his life to Jesus Christ for forgiveness of sin and right standing before God and guidance in life.Christians are sometimes refered to as” born agian ” because Jesus said that one must be born of water ( the physical birth ) and the spirit.
January 28th, 2010 at 13:08
Tech,s Statement: I can,t speak for anyone other than myself, but after reading most of the posts over the last 2 months I have come to this conclusion. Nobody on this site knows the meaning of a real Christian. A Real Christian is “A Christian is some one who has desided to entrust his life to Jesus Christ for forgiveness of sin and right standing before God and guidance in life.Christians are sometimes refered to as” born agian ” because Jesus said that one must be born of water ( the physical birth ) and the spirit.
January 28th, 2010 at 13:08
Sol say’s: Greg, Capt’n & the others just did’nt have the argument to really challenge what truth have offered.Put forth anything from science to mystique and lets start a debate on it if youre the man of truth?
I’ll bet you’ll chicken out.
Alright! Let’s begin with a simple statement to begin this “debate”. I will make the statement. It will then be your turn to logically refute the statement. Here goes!
“Mankind, along with every other specie of living thing has come about as a result of evolution of living organisms from a simple form to a more complex form. All of the evidence gathered and all of the scientific experiments conducted support this and therefore point toward it as being an irrefutable fact.”
BAT
January 28th, 2010 at 13:48
Tech
I don’t know where you get the idea that no one here knows what a Christian is. Your definition is as good a catch all as I’ve seen and wouldn’t argue with it. On the ground though once you get past the “Jesus is my saviour” schtick you would be hard pushed to find two Christians in agreement about what that actually means, what guidance to follow, and what Jesus (as quoted in the bible) really expects of them.
January 28th, 2010 at 14:39
Tech: Many of us were Christians, having been taught from an early age that the myths of Christianity were true by trusted parents and peers. Those early teachings are often difficult to extract oneself from. There are terrifying admonitions from fellow believers. “Are you telling me that you believe your own dear mother has just rotted in the ground and is not up in heaven with her sister?” Emotional tugs can be vicious.
Anyway, I know exactly what is required to be a Christian (Hear, believe, repent, confess and be baptized) and I have been a Christian. I was a good one, too. A great Christian example to everyone around me; a Bible teacher; a sometimes preacher. But as my experience grew and I kept my eyes wide open (thankfully), I began to see past the facade of “the faith” and began to realize, bit by bit, the falsehoods and flaws of an institution that has no foundation in reality, but required and/or demanded only “faith”. As with anything erodible, more and more of what I thought I was seeing became transparent. As it faded away, I began to see the magnificent reality of our physical world and how it operates. I began to realize that the root of all joy and goodness in the world came from within mankind rather than from some imaginary god.
All of this happened much later in life than I would have preferred. I missed the opportunity to fall in love with and marry an atheist woman and to raise children in an environment of truth and reality. For having missed that I am genuinely sorry. It would have been such a joy to have never once looked at the world and thought of any part of it as being mystical or spiritual or to have taught my children such foolishness.
I think the reason that it took me so long was complacency. It wasn’t until I spent 6 years intently into Bible reading and ‘fellowship’ that I really understood what I had been raised to believe and that it made no sense.
I would urge all believers of every ‘faith’ to investigate reality and evidence. Don’t ever assume that people like PZ Meyers and Richard Dawkins are just blowing smoke out their asses. Folks, these are guys that don’t give a tinkers damn what they believe as long as it’s true / supported by evidence and the scientific method. If they found evidence for God, they would be as happy to believe in him as they are to believe in DNA evidence.
BAT
January 28th, 2010 at 14:43
Mr. Atheist, You are probably right in the last part of you’re quote.So am I to assume that there is no problem to find two atheists who will agree on everything ?
January 28th, 2010 at 14:56
Tech
Not everything no, but the consistancy there is between atheists “There is probably no God” is as far as we need to go. Everything else is just world view, opinion on the available evidence etc.
Why do I appear to demand a higher standard of agreement between theists? because this is supposed to be the word of God! it should not be so ambiguous that no two individuals can agree on what is and what isn’t true scripture. In fact I would go as far to say that if all religious texts were mutually and internally consistant, and if theists of all stripes had a coherent description of God and his/her foibles, there would be no atheists.
January 28th, 2010 at 15:12
Allright this needs to be stated one more time. Christians/Muslims believe that their god is PERFECT-in fact- perfection ralized. That means if their is anything with which they disagree in their holy book that they are disagreeing with perfection. With that said, all of god’s words are perfect as well. Why are out of context passages from the bible not perfectly correct? Why is god’s perfection tainted by something like context? Seriously. TECH AND SOLOMON: Shouldn’t something perfect always be perfect? I should be able to take any quote from the bible or the Qu’oran and it should be ever applicable, ever correct, ever poignant, and timeless. Stop telling me that the bible wast written at a time when incest was cool with many people. SOMETHING PERFECT SHOULD ALWAYS BE PERFECT!!!
Magic is most certainly fiction.
January 28th, 2010 at 15:51
Magic where do you come up with some of the statements you make? Why do you attempt to answer you,re question before anyone else can? Magic do not direct any of your questions to me and Sol.Him and I are not on the same wave length by any means.If you have a question for me ask me. If you have one for Sol do like wise.
January 28th, 2010 at 15:53
Thanks for sharing your awakening story, BAT. I was raised a reasonably devout Catholic. I too know what it’s like to be a “real Christian”. Of course, born again types don’t believe Catholics are real Christians which goes to MagicAintReal’s point and one I’ve made here before.
If the torah, bible or koran were the word of god, the words of god or merely inspired by god, they would have to been so much more than they are. Their meanings would be clear and they would not be the cause of so much strife. A god, capable or omnipotence, omniscience and omnibenevolence would have known the trouble the limits of the languages and cynical self interest would have caused and could easily have found a more fool-prove means of transmission.
And how does one reconcile the divinity of the bible to the unchallenged fact that it was compiled by a committee of men over three hundred years after the events of the new testament by people that were not direct witnesses? The writings they chose from were made by people that were also not witnesses but who did have a motivation to make things seem, well, holy. Today, direct eye witness testimony is very often wrong. Are we to credit then non-eye witness testimony by men with personal interest in the outcome? A judge would throw it out.
January 28th, 2010 at 15:59
Mr. Atheist MC, You ask one question and expect for all you’re question to answered. You guys jump all over the place, one can’t even keep track of any given topic.You say I believe this and that. I said this and that. Get focused.Be specific.
January 28th, 2010 at 17:32
Tech
It really s’nt that difficult. There are two questions outstanding on this thread.
One to you:
which came partly out of our exchange.
and one to Solomon: From BAT
But this is a blog so feel free to answer either, especially since Solomon seems to be ignoring the second one anyway, despite having invited it here
January 28th, 2010 at 17:34
Well I’ll be a cockeyed mule! CapZ, this may be the first time EVER that a Catholic and a Church of Christer have agreed on ANYTHING, but you nailed it, man. We agree!
So here is part of your answer, Tech. Hell no, your never going to find two atheists who agree on everything. You’ll not find that in nature – period. Hell, bugs fight. Your question seems to be irrelevant to the discussion. The gist of what I am trying to say is something I believe a LOT of atheists might agree with: Doubt everything! Every advancement in the history of human events has been based on the principal of dissatisfaction. If we step back and doubt, we are forced to investigate to find truth. When truth is revealed, even though incomplete, there is no going back to superstition or alchemy. We march forward. Anyone who is willing to step back and doubt the mysterious collection of tales concerning religion will find that they are unable to rebuild what they once believed via the use of evidence and logical thinking.
BAT
January 28th, 2010 at 17:56
Tech – I’m troubled by your Real Christian dismissal. It offends me because of the arrogance that it’s wrapped in. Take Oxy, for an example. He considers himself a sincere believer. From his writings here I’d say his faith informs an ethical life. Yet by your lights, he’s not a Real Christian.
You cast the first stone, not against a person who has committed any evil but on an entire class of people that also look to Jesus for example but don’t happen to belong to your particular sect. There are certainly people within your sect with views strongly divergent from yours.
This strikes me as arrogance and prejudice. At root, the problem lies with the bible. You are supporting a world view based on your (and your sect’s) INTERPRETATION of it. Folks like Oxy are doing the same yet you claim that you’re the one doing it right!
“Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.”
— Isaac Asimov
January 28th, 2010 at 18:50
BAT, I hope you’re not holding your breath for a reasonable, logical, rational response to your question. I’ll guarantee you’ll get nothing but condemnation for being an atheist and a quote from the Qu’ran.
January 28th, 2010 at 19:04
I guess no matter what I say, because its all based on whats in the bible no atheist will agree with me. So rather than argue I’ll just let it rest. I’m at peace with my maker. I feel no need to argue or try to change a persons way of thinking.You are free to believe what you want. Really I’m OK with that.
January 28th, 2010 at 19:17
OK. Well, goodbye Tech.
You were nicer than some, but just as unwilling to take a second look at why you believe. Most of us have actually given religion a chance and found it lacking in reality. It is rare that a person of ‘faith’ is willing to do that.
Anyway, have a nice life!
BAT
January 28th, 2010 at 19:50
No problem Bat . Thanks for the well wish. The same for you my friend. I’m not leaving, occasionally there are perils of wisdom posted here from time to time.
January 28th, 2010 at 19:59
pearls
January 28th, 2010 at 20:23
I liked the perils of wisdom better! LOL.
January 28th, 2010 at 20:34
Well, let’s see: Would the outcome have been any different if the wording in Matthew 7:6 had been, “Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your PERILS before swine, lest they trample them under their feet.”
Discuss among yourselves! I, for one, would love for my perils to be trampled under the feet of swine.
BAT, with a hearty ROTFLMAO
January 28th, 2010 at 20:34
Me too! That was a good one, tech!
January 28th, 2010 at 20:43
If that wasn’t a genuine malapropism tech is genius. “Perils of wisdom” coming from a theist is so apt.:)
January 28th, 2010 at 21:09
Glad you enjoyed. lol. Nice to see a sense of humor once in a while.
January 28th, 2010 at 21:27
One of my favorite DJ’s used to say, “Why can’t we all just get along like circus people?” This delightful pause in the war is exactly what he was talking about…
BAT
January 28th, 2010 at 21:42
War ? The only war I’m in, would be spiritual warfare.
January 28th, 2010 at 22:10
Indeed you are! And while I was only being light-hearted, I still grant that there is “warfare” going on in the sense that you mention. Your dogma has instructed you that the enemy are out there and that you must be prepared to fight the good fight. It’s the classic good vs. evil scenario.
You have been brave enough to step into the very den of eniquity against which you have been warned. And have you found evil? I think not. Not in all of us, certainly. You have probably sensed more evil in a fellow theist than in the “worst” of us.
It’s just another reason for a person to at least consider the rational request that you step back and really take a look at what the so-called “enemy” is really trying to say – without being offended.
http://godisimaginary.com/
BAT
January 28th, 2010 at 22:14
metaphor tech, metaphor! As exemplified in the bible. Talking of which, allow me to deconstruct this…
Are you tacitly admitting that you cannot come up with a rational argument in support of your faith outside of the Bible? Even a cursory thought must suggest to you that there is something wrong with this situation.
January 29th, 2010 at 2:01
To all Atheist,
You all still does not have a straight answer to this
“Who create your head and from the head comes the eye to see, the ears to hear, the mouth to speak & finally but not least the Brain to think. And suddenly this created Brain thinks he’s not created.”
Especially the Brain part.
January 29th, 2010 at 2:03
To all Atheist,
I can answer straight on your behalf.
The answer is;
WE SIMPLY DENY.
January 29th, 2010 at 2:36
I have to agree with BAT regarding the lack of intellectual advancement. Many people who don’t have much to do with religion, still believe in ghosts and similar paranormal BS. Too many movies I suppose. It would take very little for them to jump back into the abyss of the dark ages.
Solomon, what possesses you to insist that someone or something must have created us?
Your quote: ““Who create your head and from the head comes the eye to see, the ears to hear, the mouth to speak & finally but not least the Brain to think. And suddenly this created Brain thinks he’s not created.” End quote.
Has it occurred to you that we were not created at all? It’s bad enough that you are so narrow minded that you only see one possible explanation, but to insist on it without evidence is extraordinarily foolish. Open you mind and look at all the possibilities.
Wow, I’m glad to be back from vacation! All that fun was making me think I must be evil and therefore going to hell!
January 29th, 2010 at 5:11
Dear Holysmokes,
It may took us more than half a million years to figure out how, lets say our finger nail, is design and build with its particular shape and its molecular structure. That is only one single item. Now look at all other existence around you. Can one figure out how all those things come to existence?No amount of science can grasp that.The answer behind it all is reasoning. The reasoning is that there must be a creator to every single creation.
To blantantly say ” we are not created at all ” is too way out of the concept of reasoning or only words that came out from the mouth.
January 29th, 2010 at 5:25
Dear MagicAintReal,
How can you compare two different books of different religion & different god.Surely one of it must not agree with the other. And one of them has got to be imperfect.
January 29th, 2010 at 5:34
Dear Bornagain A. Theist,
“Mankind, along with every other specie of living thing has come about as a result of evolution of living organisms from a simple form to a more complex form. All of the evidence gathered and all of the scientific experiments conducted support this and therefore point toward it as being an irrefutable fact.”
I’ve heard of this quote too many times.All they cited of is mere evolution. If everything evolve, then why does,nt the Sun or the moon or the Earth perhaps evolve too?Don’t simply say scientific experiments conducted support this and therefore point toward it as being an irrefutable fact. Wheres the proof? Whats the fact?
January 29th, 2010 at 9:45
Very true. So which one is the perfect one and why?
January 29th, 2010 at 10:21
“Very true. So which one is the perfect one and why?”
I’ll leave it to you to think it over…….WAA….KA..KA..KA..(my latest laugh)
January 29th, 2010 at 18:36
If there is but one PERFECT religion, who is to claim perfection? Surely every believer will claim perfection, but this will be impossible as perfection is subjective.
And if perfection in religion were attainable, who can refute the idea that this religion has yet to be discovered?
January 30th, 2010 at 0:47
A PERFECT religion will claim perfection by itself through reasoning,logical thinking,debate, proofs(scientific or otherwise),uncontradictory as so forth.
Nobody can refute the idea that the religion has yet to be discovered.Its already PERFECT.
January 31st, 2010 at 19:19
Solomon
It’s me again, Mohammed. You wouldn’t know perfection if it was to slap you in the face.
If you are a symbol of the perfection in Islam then it is plain to see that I have made a grave mistake.
Sincerely,
Mohammed. Kneel and pray to me, etc, etc.