9th December 2007

“When I got untethered from the comfort of religion, it wasn't a loss of faith for me, it was a discovery of self.”

Brad Pitt

96 Responses to “9th December 2007”

  1. GJK Says:

    “It is atheists who insist that God be proved scientfically”

    Before what?

  2. Thunder Says:

    * Guys, religion has little to do with hate. (et. el.) *

    First rational post I have seen from any of you.

  3. Thunder Says:

    * Before what? *

    There is no before what. It is slight of hand by them to call for a dissimilar form of proof than what the dynamics actually necessitate. It is a dishonesty. Everything past ‘I don`t want it’ is portraying dissimulation as logical deductive reason.

  4. GJK Says:

    “call for a form of proof than what the dynamics actually necessitate.”

    What form of proof do the dynamics actually necessitate?

  5. Thunder Says:

    * HAHAHAHA…. sorry Thunder but that tickle in your gut wasn’t GOD it was excitement and anticipation. *

    I certainly know what I refer to. And you certainly don`t.

    * It was the inner heart of you doing what it is meant to do… learning and growing, what you were meant to .. becoming more…. *

    You are projecting once again.

    * like I was, you have been sucked into something dead. *

    You`re wrong. You weren`t sucked into anything. You were called. You counted the cost. You made a choice. That is what everyone is called to do before they embark on the christian experience. You say it yourself there is more in this world (than in the promises of God). Consider the heavens…… You see the stars and there are numerous uncountable…… and you would choose them because you can see them. To you they have more substance. But even scientist now say there is more matter in what appears to be void than there are in the things you can see. You value what you can now see. I value what will be. I see value in the promises you don`t. NOONE can be FORCED to be a christian.

    * you are missing the eternal life and joy right here and now. *

    There is no eternal life in the flesh. If you can`t see that you are blind. And you also aren`t atheist.

    * All because you believed the lie that you nothing more than an unworthy sinner. *

    There is no doubt I`m guilty.

    * The only thing you really know is what someone else has told you. *

    I know there is God more than I know there is you.

    * You have no other proof than that. *

    Doesn`t matter how many times you call me a liar. I have numerous personal experiences any one of which is plenty of proof for me. Unlike you I was not told what to expect or I may have missed him like you did.

    * you have staked your life on the bet that they are right. *

    I`m sitting right here telling you and you can`t hear. Again…. it is impossible to walk the walk I have in life and deny there is a God.

  6. Thunder Says:

    * What form of proof do the dynamics actually necessitate? *

    The proof that is promised. “without faith it is impossible to please Him (God, aem), for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him” (Heb. 11:6).

  7. Thunder Says:

    addendum,

    Promis:

    ‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

  8. Renshia Says:

    “You value what you can now see. I value what will be. ”

    Please read that again, that is about as stupid a thing as can be.

    If there is a god do you really think that he would want you to waste this precious gift of life on “what will be”.

    You are exactly right, I do value what I see right now… And you value death…
    This is why humanity is such a mess. Because people like you got sucked into a lie and spend there whole life valuing death instead of valuing life. what a waste.
    you weren’t called you were trapped.
    You were deceived into thinking that there was something wrong with you, then fed a lie to trap and enslave you. You were offered a solution in a moment of excitement, a heightened state of euphoria was mistaken as a Revelation from god.
    you have lived within this state of delusion since, reinforcing it by your compliance, by being a good little sheep.
    You make reference that I do not know what I am talking about… but I do and you cannot accept it… You need to invalidate me because it is the only way for you to continue to accept the delusions, but that is okay because it is you who needs to learn, hopefully you won’t waste your whole life away. You will learn the truth one day, dead or alive…
    Life NOW is a wonderful glorious place. Don’t miss it.

    You only see everything the way you do because you have been a slave for so long, Like a battered wife that is to scared to leave, because she does not know where else to go….

  9. GJK Says:

    Thunder, there’s no point in quoting scripture at us – the Bible is as irrelevant as the Koran or any other cult’s ramblings – they’re just words, written by men, in times of ignorance.

  10. Renshia Says:

    “‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.”

    I would assume you knocked and he answered, SO.. What did you have for supper?

    REPEAT……:
    *****************************
    Thunder if you read this please answer me few questions,

    Is the only reason you are not a maniacle killer. Killing women and children slautering the old and infirm because of your Christian beliefs?
    Do you really feel that your emotions would be so out of control that without this Christan thing you would be out killing and hurting people?
    Did you cry out to God when you were 7 because you were out of control and going to kill your parents or someone?
    Was it maybe an overwhelming desire to steal or have sex with your neighbor?
    Did you hate a fellow student or a brother or sister?
    Did you feel an urge to throw rocks at people in wheel chairs?

    What was the need you had when you called out to God?
    *****************************

    You do not have to worry about your answer to me I will not mock you and I will not belittle your experience. If you would like I will share with you mine. Let’s share the experience I think you will be amazed at how different we may be but how similar the journey is.

  11. Renshia Says:

    “* (and I have studied this.) *

    When I say you have not studied I`m not talking about your search to discredit it. I`m talking about you knowing what the contexts mean. ”

    When I studied this I was not looking into it to discredit is I was actually studying it as part of a church presentation on the wonders of a living GOD, and yet it was impossible to find anything that reflected it. It turned out to be a study that lasted over a 8 month period and Once again I was looking to prove something not invalidate it.

    But that is okay if you would like to invalidate my intentions… I know you will need to… how else could you survive.

  12. Thunder Says:

    * Thunder, there’s no point in quoting scripture at us *

    In answering the question what proof can be expected there is nothing else to draw from considering doctrine is either scriptural or made up individually. Resent it if you want but there is no other answer.

    * the Bible is as irrelevant as the Koran or any other cult’s ramblings – they’re just words, written by men, in times of ignorance. *

    That is your opinion and it does no good to ask me the question you don`t know and then try to limit what my answer can be.

  13. Thunder Says:

    * Please read that again, that is about as stupid a thing as can be. *

    Investors value more what will be then what they presently have. Otherwise they would sit on their money instead of putting it to work. I don`t see anything stupid about what I posted and I didn`t have to read it again.

  14. Thunder Says:

    * You are exactly right, I do value what I see right now… And you value death… *

    No. I don`t. I value what will be more than what is now. Just as I said.

    * This is why humanity is such a mess. Because people like you got sucked into a lie and spend there whole life valuing death instead of valuing life. what a waste. *

    Whose time is it? You are coveting my life? You can`t do that and be busy living your own! And you can`t be different from the controllers you shadow box with in your ire. You are NOT happy. You have a contempt that sickens your soul and you should learn how to forgive.

  15. Thunder Says:

    * You make reference that I do not know what I am talking about… but I do and you cannot accept it… *

    Make reference? No. I contest your claim to be familiar with my life. And I doubt your claim that you attempted to be christian. I see no indication you know anything about it.

  16. Thunder Says:

    * You need to invalidate me *

    The invalidation comes from you when you presume to answer to my situation before you hear it from me. It clearly indicates that you are drawing from your preconceptions which are flawed. You severly overestimate the impact of your continued imposition of your opinion.

  17. Thunder Says:

    * You do not have to worry about your answer to me I will not mock you and I will not belittle your experience. *

    Nothing you have posted indicates to me that is a promise you intend to keep or that you are even able to. Everything I say you contradict and attempt to impose what amounts to your opinion fraught with bias and motivated by contempt and resentment. Whatever someone did to you it was not me. SO BACK OFF!

    * Let’s share the experience I think you will be amazed at how different we may be but how similar the journey is. *

    I have a long answer and I have a short answer. I will give you the short one. No. It doesn`t work that way. I already gave you the verses and they say look for God yourself.

    * Is the only reason you are not a maniacle killer. Killing women and children slautering the old and infirm because of your Christian beliefs? *

    That is a distinct possibility.

    * Do you really feel that your emotions would be so out of control that without this Christan thing you would be out killing and hurting people? *

    It is questions like this that tend to indicate you are not as familiar with christianity as you like to think.

    * Did you cry out to God when you were 7 because you were out of control and going to kill your parents or someone? *

    I thought I already answered as to the reason why. But, no.

    * Was it maybe an overwhelming desire to steal or have sex with your neighbor? *

    No.

    * Did you hate a fellow student or a brother or sister? *

    No.

    * Did you feel an urge to throw rocks at people in wheel chairs? *

    No.

    * What was the need you had when you called out to God? *

    I didn`t need anything.

  18. Thunder Says:

    * But that is okay if you would like to invalidate my intentions… *

    There is only one valid reason for studying the scriptures.

    * I know you will need to… *

    You don`t know any such thing. Stop the damn pretense already. You are conversing with me not a million people from your past. You are really pissing me off.

    * how else could you survive. *

    I have had thousands of conversations pertaining to this. You gotta bring more than you own doubt to pause me. You are projecting. It is your doubt not mine.

    * I was actually studying it as part of a church presentation on the wonders of a living GOD *

    What denomination was it?

    * Once again I was looking to prove something not invalidate it. *

    Prove what?

  19. Thunder Says:

    Sorry.

  20. Renshia Says:

    *I see no indication you know anything about it.*

    That is only because I express a much different perspective ofn it now.

    * Unfortunately, it is not about individuality it is about the fruit it bears. *
    *??? (don`t care anyway.)*

    You should.

    *I value what will be more than what is now.*
    Then you waste your life.

    * You can`t do that and be busy living your own! And you can`t be different from the controllers you shadow box with in your ire. You are NOT happy. You have a contempt that sickens your soul and you should learn how to forgive.*
    If I see futility and pronounce it as such, it does not mean I partake in it. (your Projecting)..lol
    I’m not happy .. you pronounce indignation about me assuming things about your life and you say this… Pot calling Kettle black….lol

    But your wrong….. I love my life. Maybe we could become friends and you could come visit my little piece of heaven.. a week or two, and then you will see how empty your life is.

    *You have a contempt that sickens your soul and you should learn how to forgive*

    Just because I chose to stand up against what I feel is a great wrong. does not mean I have bitterness or anger that sickens my soul.
    (YOUR PROJECTING)
    It is my love for this earth, the people and this wonderful universe that spurs me to defend reason.

    However I do posses a little righteous indignation. HAHAHAH… me….righteous indignation I love it… who would have thunk…. i will have to try it more often.

    *Everything I say you contradict and attempt to impose what amounts to your opinion fraught with bias and motivated by contempt and resentment.*

    I contradict you to present a optional perspective one based on reason.
    I will admit bias, but not routed in ignorance.
    I wouldn’t call it contempt, just disrespect, but no less than I would show to a fortune teller.
    Not resentment… fear, fear of all the damage it is doing to humanity.

    *Whatever someone did to you it was not me. SO BACK OFF!*

    I apologize my intention was not to attack you.

    However If you wish to be here expect your opinions to be challenged and don’t be offended when we do not settle for the same old regurgitated answers that spew lots and mean nothing.

    As a person I respect very much your courage to stand up for what you believe.
    It is just your beliefs that I can’t respect.

    If you are here and voicing your beliefs I will not give you quarter. As far as I am concern you are a representative to the destruction of mankind. I will do what I can to contribute to putting a stop to it.

    I do not single out Christianity in this I believe it to be true for all religion. If you were a Muslim or a Islamic believer we would be having a similar conversation only it would involve different gods. And then you might already be trying to hunt me down as an infidel….LOL and if your not thanks I really like my life and do not want it any shorter than necessary, I have lots to learn yet.
    It just so happens your a Christian, so we talk Christian.

    * What was the need you had when you called out to God? *
    *I didn`t need anything.*

    Then it is a good thing you were saved.
    But why then did you bother?

    * What denomination was it?*
    What difference does it make?

    *Prove what?*

    the wonders of a living GOD – or at least show a glimpse of it at work.

    **Sorry.***

    If you mean that to me you need not be.. I take no offense.

    As a Christian, and after I often stood toe to toe with those that disagreed with me. I know what it is like believe and not understand how others could fail to see. I know what it is like to have a burning desire to help others understand. Hell, I was banned from every JW hall in Canada.. They aren’t even allowed to talk to me…

    AND last of all your right.. to do project…. a bit… but I am right… I notice you did not contradict my assumptions. You just showed puffed up self-importance at me assuming as much. Frustrating to have your retorts invalidated before you can make them… But the Christian answers are all pretty canned.. hell you haven’t came up with anything new in the last 1500 years.
    if I thought about it I could probably narrow it down to about only ten or twelve which would pretty much cover anything… Maybe I will try it and see it I can get it on the qotd.

  21. Renshia Says:

    ” * Did you cry out to God when you were 7 because you were out of control and going to kill your parents or someone? *

    I thought I already answered as to the reason why. But, no.

    * Was it maybe an overwhelming desire to steal or have sex with your neighbor? *

    No.

    * Did you hate a fellow student or a brother or sister? *

    No.

    * Did you feel an urge to throw rocks at people in wheel chairs? *

    No.”——-

    You answer no to all these questions, I wonder where the sinner in you is? Where is this evil nature You need saved from?

    If I was to guess I would think you did what you did because you wanted to help people, that you liked what Christianity offered.. a hand to the poor, help to the sick, be kind to your fellow man. Where is your sinners guilt in this? If you were an evil sinner how could you have been attracted to this life..
    Is it because you make a mistake?
    Because you misjudge something?
    Reacted in fear and try and protect yourself?
    Took a desperate measure in order to survive?
    Where is this sinner that would be condemned?

    What condemned you? What wickedness was in you?
    What sin could you have possibly been guilty of that you needed to be saved?

  22. GJK Says:

    ‘”the Bible is as irrelevant as the Koran or any other cult’s ramblings – they’re just words, written by men, in times of ignorance.”‘

    “That is your opinion.”

    It’s not an opinion – these are the facts. Were they not written by human hands, by people who had no understanding of the physical universe?

    You could argue that these ignorant men were divinely inspired but then why are the scriptures inconsistent and self-contradictory?

  23. Thunder Says:

    * It’s not an opinion – these are the facts. *

    There have been no facts submitted yet from your side. I provided the information about mark 16 that you didn`t even know existed. You want to reopen the first dispute on this thread? I sure hope you are more familiar with it now than you were then.

    * Were they not written by human hands, by people who had no understanding of the physical universe? *

    They weren`t intended to be science books. It is yet another way for you to ask for a dissimilar type of evidence (proof). The message was about the ethereal and sociological. It has to be in a frame of reference to the people it is given to. Yours is the same selfish character of adam and eve where they wanted the juicy stuff before they were ready for it. You think it would make more sense for them to have been given an absolute science book? You think in a world teetering on the brink of nuclear annialation that we are prepared for an absolute science book?

    * You could argue that these ignorant men were divinely inspired *

    That is exactly my position.

    * but then why are the scriptures inconsistent and self-contradictory? *

    A scientific inconsistency or contradiction is considered evolution. A lawful contradiction (abortion for instance) is considered a social evolution. You can explain progression but you will not allow it?

  24. Thunder Says:

    * That is only because I express a much different perspective ofn it now. *

    I can tell when you try to characterize it from my perspective that you don`t know it.

    * You should. *

    If it made sense I may have been able to respond to it.

    * Then you waste your life. *

    And you could do a better job with it! You covet and you are hypocritical.

    * If I see futility *

    You don`t! You only know of my life what I have told you. What you are doing is projecting the image you have of the life you may have had here because of a continued belief. You are way out of bounds judging the value of my life that you don`t even know.

    * it does not mean I partake in it. *

    You are attempting control of me. I`m not exaggerating that.

    * (your Projecting).. *

    No. I have no problem differentiating my self image from the image I have of you.

    * I’m not happy .. you pronounce indignation about me assuming things about your life and you say this… Pot calling Kettle black….lol *

    When you reflect on your failed christian venture there is resentment. Many are called few are chosen. It doesn`t have to end badly but you have already stated what you value and you have already spoken the truth in saying it is an impediment. I just wonder what it is that you value so highly that you think you can`t have if you walk the christian way?

    * Just because I chose to stand up against what I feel is a great wrong. does not mean I have bitterness or anger that sickens my soul. *

    I fail to see what your feelings have to do with how I live my life! I`ve been christian for 38 years and I never even dreamed of asking your permission first.

    * It is my love for this earth, the people and this wonderful universe that spurs me to defend reason. However I do posses a little righteous indignation. *

    There is NOTHING righteous about indignation predicated on false accusation.

    * I contradict you to present a optional perspective one based on reason. *

    You do NOT have the option of negating my legitamate motives. Your ability to reason has yet to be established. Bring substantive necessity to negate my stated motives. Your abiding hunger to tear me down does not qualify.

    * I apologize my intention was not to attack you. *

    Still you can`t stop.

    * I will admit bias, but not routed in ignorance. *

    It is ignorant to accuse without presenting evidence. Stereotypes are not evidentual.

  25. Thunder Says:

    * I wouldn’t call it contempt, just disrespect, but no less than I would show to a fortune teller. *

    I go by what comes through in your posts. Stereotypes are constructions of superficial arguments used in leu of investigative effort. They permit ignorance and are fueld by contempt (disrespect which you admit in contradiction in the very next clause).

    * As a person I respect very much your courage to stand up for what you believe. It is just your beliefs that I can’t respect. *

    Your respect for my beliefs is not even a consideration when you don`t found your aversion with more than you have.

    * If you are here and voicing your beliefs I will not give you quarter. *

    I wasn`t aware that I needed it.

    * As far as I am concern you are a representative to the destruction of mankind. *

    Mankind does not need any help in destroying themselves.

    * I will do what I can to contribute to putting a stop to it. *

    The wicked flee when no man pursues.

  26. Thunder Says:

    * I do not single out Christianity in this I believe it to be true for all religion. *

    A witch hunt by any other name…..

    * Then it is a good thing you were saved. But why then did you bother? *

    Because when I heard about it….. I wanted it.

    * What difference does it make? *

    Scripture is about spiritual matters but it does define the physical construction of the church hierarchy. Any group that can legitamately be characterized as a denomination is constructed contradictory to the scriptural make up of the church. It is maybe the greatest single consideration a person can take into account to strip away the pretenders from the real article. They can`t give someone the truth if they don`t know it themselves.

    * If you mean that to me you need not be.. I take no offense. *

    It was to the admin. I kinda pushed back the boundry just a smidgen.

    * but I am right… I notice you did not contradict my assumptions. *

    Yes, I did; and no, you are not.

    * You just showed puffed up self-importance at me assuming as much. Frustrating to have your retorts invalidated before you can make them *

    Self-importance? I should think I`m important enough for you to be in conversation with me instead of your straw man! We can never KNOW what I would have said….. You won`t fricken shut up you idiot! You don`t invalidate anything you just make yourself look like an unreasonable baffoon to me!

    I have to take a break…. Your ignorance is toxic to me.

  27. Thunder Says:

    * You answer no to all these questions, I wonder where the sinner in you is? *

    When I calm down and if I am permitted….. I will come back and answer this…….

  28. Renshia Says:

    Wow man I can’t believe Your getting worked up… Must be hitting home… You really should take a break and get a way from all this questioning…
    It’s not healthy for you.
    You know you might just ask yourself a question that can’t be rationalized… Then all hell will break loose. You start asking questions…then more questions because they really don’t like hard questions and they usually don’t answer them very well. You might get frustrated, then they will get angry, then you will be punished… heck if you ask to many questions… people might begin to talk… next thing you know they will be excommunicating you….And then poof,…………
    you will be sitting there wondering… what the hell was I thinking..

    We all know they don’t like thinking in church and how they need you to believe without to much questioning.

    Anger, becomes a cage, makes you become irrational, I think I see signs of it in your post.

    Maybe the anger stems from… And I may be projecting a bit here.. I once learned that when you interact with some one what you see is really a reflection of yourself..
    when we interact maybe….you see yourself asking questions and you are really seeking answers, I reflect back to you your doubt and your questions and it angers you. You know you should have more faith, you know you should believe but maybe it doesn’t make sense to you either, and ya hate it.

    One day when were friends and your visiting… I will teach you a secret about anger.
    It will make your heart a little lighter… It will give you power.
    Only when your ready, power is dangerous.

    Relax man none of this really matters anyway….

    You’ll die – you’ll find out.
    I’ll die – I’ll find out

    You can die, Praying your way into a hopeful there after.

    I’ll die, Sliding into home base saying ” WOW!!!! What a ride.”!…
    ..(Quoting Hunter S. Thompson)

    Knowing I did my impeccable best.
    Whatever I have to give back to the universe, SO BE IT!!!!”

  29. Renshia Says:

    * You should. *
    If it made sense I may have been able to respond to it.

    it is all about context…see below… read completely.

    **”Whether it is the Muslims, Judaism, Christians or the Islam. Between George Bush and his Christian ethics to The Talaban we would sure be a hell of a lot better off without the lot of you. .
    Now I feel confident you will retort that Bush is not a real Christian and the rest are just heathens or something like that.
    Once again it comes down to the island unto itself and the rest aren’t really Christians.
    ****Unfortunately, it is not about individuality
    it is about the fruit it bears.****

    For every Mother Teresa out there there is some fanatic with a gun proclaiming his right to kill the infidel. If religion was banned and you had to rely on this one life being the only shot you have at it, the religious might put a little more value in life than in death.”***

    as an atheist, and on behalf of most I know this is how we see it.

    As a christian, you align your self to Christianity. You see it makes no difference what brand of Christian you are, to us your all the same, it is all lies and hypocrisies to us anyways… Now I would suspect you do not think it is fair to lump you in with the rest. (i know the island unto itself thing). But, we do.
    We see the fruits of this Christian thing, the fruits of religion… and we see you choose to align your self with that “The single most destructive force known to man”.
    At the very least you should “abstain from the appearance of evil”, and if anything could be labeled as evil, religion has to be on top of the list.
    but as you said “you don’t care”..

    You don’t care that your religion causes more wars than anything,else,
    ( The Christian crusades, The war in Croatia, Terrorist attacks and the war in Iraq)
    causes disease and poverty.
    ( Don’t wear condoms it is a sin, Give money to the church, you have to tithe,
    Teaches hate and intolerance
    Luke 14:26
    If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

    It says a lot about you… You are a Christian.. you are part of the problem. You think your right you think you have a right to come and question us… try to push your version of truth… a truth you have derived from some stupid book and some idiot on the pulpit… of a fantasy you have zero tangible proof of.

    You have been sucked into a delusion, you put prejudiced blinders on and you “Don’t Care”….
    Shame on you.

  30. Renshia Says:

    “* Then you waste your life. *

    And you could do a better job with it! **You covet and you are hypocritical.**”
    covet what?? hypocritical about what??

    “* If I see futility *

    You don`t! You only know of my life what I have told you. What you are doing is projecting the image you have of the life you may have had here because of a continued belief. You are way out of bounds judging the value of my life that you don`t even know.”

    you taking this way to personal.. i was talking about religion.

    “You are attempting control of me. I`m not exaggerating that.”

    this is evidence of your delusion..what would I want to control you for?? My own life is a big enough challenge as it is what would i want to control you and have to assume responsibility for your mess? I don’t need a slave. You already owned by God. I just disagree with you and don’t cow to your rages…. get over yourself.

    ” * If you are here and voicing your beliefs I will not give you quarter. *

    I wasn`t aware that I needed it.”

    Need what?….
    DEFINITION of quarter: (in the way I am using it in the above sentence)
    mercy or indulgence, esp. as shown in sparing the life and accepting the surrender of a vanquished enemy: to give quarter; to ask for quarter; to deny giving quarter.
    So When you tell me to back off forget it.. not a chance….

    “You do NOT have the option of negating my legitamate motives.”

    first off why not… who are you GOD? you claim their legitimate I see them as delusional… My life can do what I want… I am not your slave either.

    ” They can`t give someone the truth if they don`t know it themselves.”

    So who gave you the monopoly on it.

    And I am supposed to believe your right? that you have the truth? that out of all the different factions. Your little click is the one that holds the truth. You would be so prideful as to insinuate that? Baah… big heads in your church or what?

    So tell me whats so much truer about your delusion than all the others?

    You sure do a lot of judging…. I thought the bible says Judge not and Yea shall not be judged. Matthew 7:1

    “Still you can`t stop.”
    Poor you, do you need a hug?
    Do not play pity party with me. You don’t like to be challenged for your ramblings don’t leave them.

    “it is ignorant to accuse without presenting evidence.”
    State what accusation I made with no evidence I will be happy to supply more.

    “Stereotypes are constructions of superficial arguments”
    Where did I stereo type…
    Just because I see common patterns does not constitute stereo typing.

    ” I fail to see what your feelings have to do with how I live my life! I`ve been christian for 38 years and I never even dreamed of asking your permission first.”

    again your taking this way to personal… I am talking about religion.. And I wasn’t thinking you need my permission for anything??? Your Gods slave not mine, ask him.

    “Mankind does not need any help in destroying themselves.”

    Then you should quit helping.
    Well not any more, now that they have religion.

    “* I will do what I can to contribute to putting a stop to it. *
    The wicked flee when no man pursues.”
    What does that mean? you talking gibberish?

    “* I do not single out Christianity in this I believe it to be true for all religion. *
    A witch hunt by any other name…..”

    I make no bones about, I would burn you all at the stake if I could.

    “Because when I heard about it….. I wanted it.”

    ah so it was just greed, and you expect to get into heaven on that??…. And were supposed to believe you have an understanding of God, and you carry the truth…Ha..Your actions make lies of your words.

    “Self-importance? I should think I`m important enough for you to be in conversation with me instead of your straw man! We can never KNOW what I would have said….. You won`t fricken shut up you idiot!

    Your important bah… your nothing but a slave… a spec in the sand
    and you know for all your Christian love… i just ain’t feeling much right now… You sure are failing at making me feel you got something I need….Any body else feeling the love?

    This began the foundation of my being an atheist,
    you religious folk after all your talk your actions always turn your words into lies. If you are the chosen of god and you can talk and act this way… I would rather go to hell that have to be associated with the likes of you…
    If you have god in your heart, how can you act this way… if your full of the love of jesus how can you talk this way… If you have been touched by the holy sprit….. where is it now…. blind hypocrisy….
    Shame on you.

  31. Thunder Says:

    * Wow man I can’t believe Your getting worked up… *

    You wouldn`t have a problem with it if you were as adept at looking at things from my perspective as you tell yourself you are.

    * Must be hitting home… *

    Because I don`t like you using me as an effigy to vent your contempt that makes you right?

    * You really should take a break and get a way from all this questioning…*

    What questioning? You are editorializing.

    * It’s not healthy for you. *

    The tender mercies of the wicked are cruel. If you shut up I woudn`t be pissed off at your abuses.

    * You know ………… what the hell was I thinking.. *

    Blah blah blah!!!! You are still ignoring me and attacking your straw man.

    * We all know they don’t like thinking in church *

    You don`t know any such thing.

    * how they need you to believe without to much questioning. *

    You don`t know that either.

    * Anger, becomes a cage, makes you become irrational, I think I see signs of it in your post. *

    You don`t think at all. It is not irrational for me to expect to be allowed to make my case rather than to have a case shoved down my throat and be expected to defend it when it is not my position. I define my position. NOT YOU ! I might as well not be here and then you can dispute your christian ghost to your hearts content and give yourself all the atta-boys that you want for arguing with your alterego.

  32. Thunder Says:

    * Maybe the anger stems from… And I may be projecting a bit here.. I once learned that when you interact with some one what you see is really a reflection of yourself.. *

    You don`t need to speculate. I`m telling you exactly where it is comming from. OPEN UP YOUR EARS!

  33. Thunder Says:

    * when we interact maybe….you see yourself asking questions and you are really seeking answers *

    I told you what my motive for being here was. To divest you of the delusions of your falsified self-image. If I wanted answers I would not ask an atheist especially about spiritual matters. You could prove me wrong in my contention that you see yourself clearly in a fun house mirror by simply being reasonable and intelligent and open-minded. You fight that because you like your self-image even though it is an illusion.

  34. Thunder Says:

    * You know you should have more faith, you know you should believe but maybe it doesn’t make sense to you either, and ya hate it. *

    And yes you are projecting.

    * One day when were friends and your visiting… I will teach you a secret about anger. *

    If your freinship is contingent on me agreeing with you….. you have to come up with more substance than I see in your posts.

    * but as you said “you don’t care”.. *

    I indicated what I was responding to. ONE LINE. Not the rest of it. Now you are being manipulative.

    * It says a lot about you… You are a Christian.. you are part of the problem. *

    And your conduct in this conversation says a lot about you. At the very least you do not know how to properly conduct yourself in debate and at the most you are hypocritically guilty of what you accuse others of. You tell me if bigotry and stereotyping are not a major part of what is wrong in the world. Those are not products of the relgion reflected in the verse I provided to indicate my position.

    * If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. *

    You know it doesn`t mean what you indicate here. That is dishonest. The word hate is more correctly translated deny and/or reject in paralle passages. You being dishonest is exactly what I have learned to expect from you.

  35. Thunder Says:

    * you taking this way to personal.. i was talking about religion. *

    You are lying.

    * get over yourself. *

    That admonishment fits better your position here.

    * So who gave you the monopoly on it. *

    I didn`t claim to. I don`t propose to elaborate on things I don`t know.

    * And I am supposed to believe your right? *

    In an honest discussion with me you are suppose to give way to imput. Conversations with you are contrived and not open. When the subject is my position I am the formost authority on what I believe; you are not.

    * that out of all the different factions. Your little click is the one that holds the truth. *

    I didn`t mention any clique. For by one spirit we are all baptized into one body…. That verse necessitates unity in truth not sectarianism.

    * Baah… big heads in your church or what? *

    A commitment (motive: conviction) to be scripturally sound in practice.

    * You sure do a lot of judging…. *

    I do considerably less than you do.

    * I thought the bible says Judge not and Yea shall not be judged. Matthew 7:1 *

    That is not the extent of what it says about judging. I have not said one thing that is not true. And I have not condemned anyone unlike you.

  36. GJK Says:

    “The word hate is more correctly translated deny and/or reject in parallel passages.”

    Err… does that make it any better?

  37. Thunder Says:

    * Poor you, do you need a hug? Do not play pity party with me. *

    Everything I say to you is a challenge for you to bring out those things you claim to value. Reason and open-mindedness and logic. A side order of honesty would be nice though I know that is not one of the nominal atheist claims.

    * Then you should quit helping. *

    Another lie. Not really the same lie you have been insinuating already.

    * I make no bones about, I would burn you all at the stake if I could. *

    That`s hypocrisy. You are a religious zealot and you more resemble what is wrong in this world that I do. I`m come here saying let`s talk and you chime in saying no way let`s frag `em all.

  38. Thunder Says:

    * Err… does that make it any better? *

    Not trying to abate the impact of it. I am correcting someone being intentionally dishonest.

  39. Renshia Says:

    * I have not said one thing that is not true.*
    No…. you just twist everything to fit your thoughtless concept of true.

    You don’t want an open debate you liar. You want everyone to read what you say and go ohhh… he so knowledgeable…

    Everything anyone says you invalidate because it doesn’t match your opinion.
    you act like you have a monopoly on truth.. I tell you I studied the origins of the bible, you invalidate it by assuming I was trying to rip it apart. I tell you that was not my intention, then you try to make it look like it was because I belonged to a heathen denomination…
    Are you really so thick that you think you know everything…you act like you do.

    Here let me placate your self importance….yes thunder your right and everyone else is wrong…. now I am going to run off to church and get saved…

    Your blind hypocrisy’s invalidate all that you say….

  40. Renshia Says:

    *For by one spirit we are all baptized into one body*
    Really then why did you ask what denomination I was involved in….If it is all one body…
    Come on twist it match what you want, I know you can…
    You can twist anything when you have no basis in truth…

    *I`m come here saying let`s talk*
    More like .. i KNOW the truth… come listen to me blab… then as soon as someone disagrees, you go,… look he attacking me… Your pathetic and very transperent

    *and you chime in saying no way let`s frag `em all.*
    Really where did I say that… If that is true then why am here writing you instead of on my way to Greenbrier, Arkansas to frag you…
    Just because I think you should be burned at the stake, doesn’t mean I we should go out and do it.
    unfortunately I also believe in each persons right to their own opinion… no matter how wrong it is… doesn’t mean I have to agree or accept it…doesn’t mean I don’t have a right to refute it.
    I just accept your right to say it.

  41. Renshia Says:

    * I told you what my motive for being here was. To divest you of the delusions of your falsified self-image. *

    Coming from you… now thats a crock….

    and how could you possibly do that… by sharing your own delusions…
    Give us proof, show us your GOD…
    Bah….. you can’t because there is nothing to show…

  42. Thunder Says:

    * You don’t want an open debate you liar. *

    You do not have the guts to try and find out! I think you already know you are insufficiently equiped to face me down. It shows when you disallow me the logical correctness of being the voice of my own position.

    * You want everyone to read what you say and go ohhh… he so knowledgeable… *

    Again, projecting. That is clearly your motive. You are playing to your atheist audience and most of them are smarter than you are.

    * Everything anyone says you invalidate because it doesn’t match your opinion. *

    I have been vocal about two things…. your ignorance of what I believe and your ignorance of the origins of conflict and strife. In addition to that I have pointed out when your true character proves to be dissimilar from your supposed self-image.

    * I tell you I studied the origins of the bible, you invalidate it *

    I did not propose to invalidate. Please look up that word. The word you should be using there is dispute. And no, I did not dispute you studying the origins of the bible. I, CLEARLY, disputed your claim to understand christianity. You hold it noble to use your human reason to voidai scripture for its validity but christians study scripture for direction and information. Not to critique. They already believe in God and want to know him better on a personal level. I don`t get that from you.

    * assuming I was trying to rip it apart. *

    That is not an assumption if you look back on your answer to my question: “prove what?” I`m wondering when you will find out there are other ways beside accusatory to ask a question? You NEVER personalized God you judged his viability through the answers you received by other than God.

    * I tell you that was not my intention *

    I know how to read.

    * then you try to make it look like it was because I belonged to a heathen denomination… *

    I didn`t try to do anything. If you KNEW anything about christianity you know that a large part of the scriptures address false religion, false faith and false guides.

    * Are you really so thick that you think you know everything…you act like you do. *

    No, I do not. I speak of things I understand.

    * Here let me placate your self importance *

    You couldn`t possibly. It is not your opinion of me that I seek to effect. Your opinion of yourself I seek to draw the attention of the audience of the board to (including your own opinion of you). But pertaining to a perception of me…… I am only interested in Gods opinion of me. I believe he is real and I believe he holds truth to be sacrisanct. Since I believe those things and since I believe he is among the audience to the things we do….. I do not lie. Lying would not be beneficial to what I hold to be most important.

    * Your blind hypocrisy’s invalidate all that you say…. *

    I`m positive I have a better perspective of the dynamics of this conversation than you do.

  43. Thunder Says:

    * Really then why did you ask what denomination I was involved in….If it is all one body… *

    Because you have an invalid characterization of christianity. Denominations do not disqualify the church. They disqualify themselves from the church by being separate. The church is spiritual and can`t be indicated by a title or an extra-scriptural creed or catecism. Nor is it invested in any human progression of authority.

    * Come on twist it match what you want, I know you can… *

    I have not twisted anything.

    * You can twist anything when you have no basis in truth… *

    I sure you would know about that. In fact it is evidenced in this thread.

    * More like .. i KNOW the truth… come listen to me blab… *

    You have yet to hear what I believe. The extent of this thread is you mischaracterizing me and me attempting to point out to you the futility of you trying to invalidate me by ripping and slashing at what does not even represent me.

    * then as soon as someone disagrees *

    Says a lot about you when you disagree before you have even heard my position.

    * you go,… look he attacking me *

    When did I say you were attacking me? I said you beat at the air and pat yourself on the back for your pretense of winning a battle against me that you never allowed me to be in. Don xquiote` tilting at windmills thinking he is a dragon slayer.

    * Really where did I say that… If that is true then why am here writing you instead of on my way to Greenbrier, Arkansas to frag you… *

    Put enough people together that think like you do and eventually you won`t feel any impediment to performing what you say you would do. And I never mentioned greenbriar arkansas.

    * Just because I think you should be burned at the stake *

    That ain`t what you said. You said if you could you would. It speaks to your character and I won`t let you wiggle out of it.

    * doesn’t mean I we should go out and do it. *

    It means you want to and it clearly indicates you to be unreasonable. I`m glad there is law to inhibit evil people like you.

    * unfortunately I also believe in each persons right to their own opinion… *

    Unfortuantely???? So if it weren`t for the consequences of law you would deny me my right to my opinion by ending my life. Thank God for law that inhibits evil people like you.

    * I just accept your right to say it. *

    At what point have you ever? Certainly not in this thread! You are the one who said you would grant me no quarter and here you are contradicting yourself. And you call me pathetic?

  44. Renshia Says:

    “who said you would grant me no quarter and here you are contradicting yourself.”
    Just because I don’t like what you saying does not make me think you should have a right to say it
    Just because I listen to you say it does not mean I don’t have a right to disagree and refute you.

  45. Thunder Says:

    * Just because I don’t like what you saying does not make me think you should have a right to say it *

    You aren`t disliking my position. You are expressing dislike for positions you assume I must take because you claim to know something you are completely ignorant of. And you will not be corrected no matter how wrong you are. And you are wrong.

    * Just because I listen *

    There is no evidence in these posts that you have listened.

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