5th February 2010
“Even now, centuries after the basic biblical canon was established, there are still serious disagreements between Jews and Christians, between Catholics and Protestants, and among the various Protestant sects as to what books should be included in the Bible. The various Protestant sects also disagree about which of the many varying translations of these books should be used. Consequently, one cannot really believe in 'The' Bible – one is forced to choose 'a' Bible. Given that all allegedly are the word of God, all are basically unverifiable, and all are to some degree mutually exclusive, it is difficult to see how one may make such a choice.”
James Tracy
February 5th, 2010 at 1:35
Nevertheless its a wiser choice than doing a guesing job without guidance.
February 5th, 2010 at 1:39
Most true believers will maintain that version of the holy book they adhere to is the ‘right’ version and that their religion is the ‘true’ version, etc.
And they know this because it says so right there in the book!
I mean, how can you argue with that logic??
February 5th, 2010 at 2:16
Yes Greg your logic is right on and I will never be a slave on my knees to no unclean priest, money grubbing preacher or islamic dictator.
February 5th, 2010 at 3:07
John – I should point out that Islam is a religion of peace! Haven’t you been paying attention? Here’s an example:
“Iraq bombing kills at least 20 as pilgrims converge on Karbala”
See? There are 20 pilgrims who are, being dead, quite peaceful!
Allah Akbar, or whatever the peaceful hordes of Semtex laden foot soldiers of Islam say. Peace sounds a lot like women crying over the dead bodies of children but that’s just a coincidence so don’t read too much into it.
P.S. You know the Koran is true because there’s only one authorized version. Muhammad obviously had a good Jewish copyright lawyer.
February 5th, 2010 at 3:44
There is only one authorized version of ‘Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy’. Should I live my life by it? Oh? Well, then, if you say so. Lemme go grab my towel.
February 5th, 2010 at 4:00
Sorry to have to be one to break it to all of you, but the King James version is the only legitimate one. It was deciphered a mere 1600 years after the last of these godly events supposedly happened. It was done by several top-notch scientific and linguistics experts for James the IV of Scotland after he ascended the English throne starting back in 1601. Don’t worry about the 400,000 “plus or minus” corrections, deletions and changes that have occurred to it over the past 400 years. It’s all good. It was perfect before these changes and remained so during all of them. Don’t ask me how that was possible, but it was. After all, it is gods word, right? I’m just glad they were able to perfectly translate each and every language so perfectly into English. What a feat! I know that I feel better about it!
February 5th, 2010 at 4:43
CaptainZero1969:
I will repent and pay closer attention! Maybe the people of peace will kill each other off as was it not just yesterday they slue 45? I love those peaceful children of akbar.
I need a beer….
February 5th, 2010 at 4:47
Yes Holysmokes:
The one I love is when they, the fools of the truth and light start a sentence with; jesus says… you know that’s the truth about to spill out.
February 5th, 2010 at 5:07
You guys and gals crack me up! Thanks for the Monty Python stuff yesterday! I so needed the laugh!
Oh yeah, solid quote. More to it of course, but solid. But we (believers) do indeed make our choices based on a variety of criteria, both fantastical (from your atheist POV) and even scientific! No point in going into it here – suggest interested parties read a theologian/historian or two (I know some of you have; guessing Solomon hasn’t). For the record, I am a Christian theist who holds that the sacred books of any group are indeed sacred to that group. Call me Captain Obvious. It is the group that makes the book sacred, not the book itself; they don’t fall complete and unalterable from out of the heavens above (though Solomon will certainly continue to claim exactly that for the “Qoran”). The concept of plenary inspiration is just plain stupid. Sacred books can also be studied and even be seen as important and valuable from a secular perspective as well. I believe in God (whose existence I cannot scientifically prove), not in any book written by human beings, even inspired human beings. I use and study all versions of the Bible, from a variety of perspectives, right along side science books, history books, etc…
“KJV Only” people are just plane loony, even to us merely “silly” Christians.
February 5th, 2010 at 5:09
I mean “plain” loony . . .
February 5th, 2010 at 5:10
Has it been mentioned that the original Greek and Aramaic texts PREDATE punctuation? Makes guaranteeing the authors intent all but impossible.
He killed, the fool!
He killed the fool.
February 5th, 2010 at 5:13
“Iraq bombing kills at least 20 as pilgrims converge on Karbala”=not the work of truly devout muslim
“Iraq bombing kills at least 20 as pilgrims converge on Karbala”= the works of Hypocrate cum “traces of Atheists thoughts”
Waaa..ka..ka..ka..
February 5th, 2010 at 5:27
Dear old solomon: The great teacher of islam; keeper of the truth and the light; believer in the “book of terror”; one whom is forbidden to and thus never allowed to divert from the literal translation of the quran under punishment of death:
I it not still muslims killing muslims for muslims?
February 5th, 2010 at 5:32
So what does a “truly devout muslim” do: post non-sensical refutations of rational thought, endless condemnations of atheists and un-truly devout religionists to everlasting hellfire by his God of peace, and signing off with his trademark “WTF is that a crow” signature on a web-site called AQOTD? Allah must be so proud!
February 5th, 2010 at 5:35
Oxymoronic Christhinker; I believe it to be a Mexican Raven
February 5th, 2010 at 5:44
Cap’n: Are you saying we should give up on ancient texts because they are really hard to translate? Sorry ’bout the sarcasm-light, but come on. Just because a text is difficult doesn’t make it worthless. I get that much of the Bible(s) will be pointless for you due to its focus on a being in which you do not believe, but there is value to these books culturally, historically, etc… quite apart from their use as sacred texts and as fodder for the God question. I wouldn’t want to give up the Greek philosophers etc… just because they wrote in an ancient language pre-dating punctuation.
February 5th, 2010 at 5:45
John: Prove it!
February 5th, 2010 at 6:10
I can’t… so it must be a crow.
February 5th, 2010 at 6:15
Ah, the crow of the gaps argument. Its settled then. I suppose I have to eat crow now?
February 5th, 2010 at 6:29
“Is Christopher Hitchens Religious?” Good article with good comments from theists and atheists alike. Check it out:
http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/religionandtheology/2253/christopher_hitchens,_religious_in_spite_of_himself
February 5th, 2010 at 7:22
My point was more along the lines of no divine being would even use something as deficient as the materials cobbled together into the bible to make her point. My point is that thinking that any such text is in even the smallest sense divine is both silly and an insult to the intelligence behind the supposed message. My point is that a divine being with the quality of omniscience, as is claimed in most versions of the Christian god, would not have erred in such an egregious manner as to entrust her message to her people to a bunch of goat herders in an uncivilized backwater of the middle east. My point is that there is absolutely nothing in any one of these bronze age snuff-porn manuals that was beyond the literary capabilities of the people in that time and place. The content of these books is what condemns them and makes certain the conclusion that there was nothing divine in their creation or their inspiration. Believe in god if you must but don’t dirty yourself by indulging in the immature view of human morality on painful display in the bible or koran.
I like the Greeks too – have you tried the gyro? MMM.
February 5th, 2010 at 7:49
The question & quotes the Atheists cannot answer or refute:
1. Who creates the first design?
2. The created brain thinks he’s not created.
3. An unknown form of just mere words “evolution” & “nature” could planned
the things that is happening from the past, present & the future without a
bit of error & without going out of control or goes haywire?
February 5th, 2010 at 7:54
Well, at least somebody knows for certain what God would be like if she actually existed. And the Bible is apparently one of several “snuff porn manuals” available to me to “dirty” myself with. And the human authors of these manuals were a “bunch of goat herders.” This surprisingly ignorant rant is of the same kind that Solomon might write were he actually able to write. The ignorance of the actual contents of these “snuff manuals”, not to mention history, philosophy, theology, religion, anthropology, archaeology, geology, topography and pretty much all modern scholarship, secular and religious, of every variety on display in this vicious little paragraph is beneath you, Cap’n. Not a single, scientifically verifiable fact shines through; its all uninformed opinion masquerading as self-evident analysis. I would have expected better. Don’t believe in God if you must, but don’t dirty yourself by relying on the same kind of ignorance the fundies do to control and manipulate their automatons.
And yeah, I’ve tried the gyro. MMM, MMM, good!
February 5th, 2010 at 8:15
Dont mention of ignorant rant,philosophy,theology,fundies or whatever crap.
Comment on my previous post first if youre the man of truth.
Atheists=LIARS
February 5th, 2010 at 8:39
Solomon, the VAST majority of you’re posts make zero sense so they are impossible to comment on. The Cap’n at his most critical can WRITE – even devastatingly – and has more going for him intellectually than you are capable of imagining. Most commentators here can think. You could not think your way out of a paper bag. I doubt you even understand the ‘big words’ sometimes used in the quotes and comments here. You know what a dictionary is? Find out and use it.
There are, as far as I am able to discern, no liars on AQOTD. There is, however, at least one idiot (perhaps two, if I include myself on occasion). Go look in the mirror, Obeyer of Allah, and the idiot will be looking back at you.
Have a nice day.
February 5th, 2010 at 9:03
Why don’t you just declare youre an idiot & a liar who cannot answer my comments & then laid the case to rest for good.
February 5th, 2010 at 9:14
Ok. Solomon, I’m an idiot and a liar who cannot answer your questions. You win. Praise Allah. Have fun in Heaven. I’ll be in hell.
We good?
February 5th, 2010 at 9:55
Nevertheless I’ll pray god will show you all the true path & let us all be in heaven.Amen
February 5th, 2010 at 12:39
Solomon , Solomon, Solomon. Calling people liars and even naming who they are. People could be ignorant that don’t they are liars.
February 5th, 2010 at 12:41
that don,t mean they’re liars.
( Its too early in the morning )
February 5th, 2010 at 12:53
No doubt Solomon has seventy-two good “raisins” to want to go to heaven. Inerrant word of God my arse.
February 5th, 2010 at 13:06
Oxy
I tend to see the New Testement as a particular Jewish sect trying to rationalise the Torah with the Platonic ethics they inherited from contact with the Greeks. That the saviour meme should become incorporated in those texts is understandable given the political context at the time. Also understandable is the God Man Christ figure, as that was also a prevalent myth of the Greco/Roman world.
What I’m saying is that, yes, we should respect these books for what they are, even the O.T which again is a fascinating cultural artefact and the Qu’ran, which is a polemic, but interesting historically. But we should not accept them as moral guidance anymore than contempory works of philosophy.
February 5th, 2010 at 13:28
Solomon: I know this a waste of time but I’m bored so
This is question begging as it assumes a “who” is required but… If it was God, where does God come from? If we assume he is eternal it is just as logical to assume the universe is eternal. This is not a disproof of a creator God, one could exist, but why assume one without eveidence. We know the universe exist to the extent we can perceive it. God however is invisible or absent.
This isn’t even a question. The assumption behind it is that brains did not evolve. Unfortunately for this idea all the evidence is that they did. See below
Evolution doesn’t plan anything. The algorithm of variation + inheritence+selection drives adaptations in response to environment and competition from other organisms. Complexity and diversity are the inevitable consequence of this, but specific outcomes (daisies, parrots, human beings) aren’t. The mistake you make is to assume that the organisms we see today were a planned outcome, they’re not, only the outcome that happened. The other assumption in your question is very wrong. Evolution is full of errors. There are countless examples of cludges and make do solutions in all organisms. This is the result of evolution blindly adopting one solution to a problem and then having to build upon that to fix another problem. In fact this is the killer argument AGAINST a designer. God would have no need to cludge, he could go back to the drawing board and design efficient elegent solutions from scratch, evolution can’t, doesn’t and obviously hasn’t which is why we know evolution MUST be true.
February 5th, 2010 at 13:51
Oxy (and anyone else for that matter)
I usually hang out at Daylight Atheism, although I comment there under my real name. I say this because intelligent theistic argument gets a very good and respectful hearing there, and the host, Ebonmuse, doesn’t tolerate trolls so the debating standard is consistently high.
February 5th, 2010 at 14:29
High by who’s standards?
February 5th, 2010 at 17:04
? solomon: The great teacher of islam; keeper of the truth and the light; believer in the “book of terror”; follower of one who marries 6 year old little girls; then unites with them when they turn 9 years old, one whom is forbidden to and thus never allowed to divert from the literal translation of the quran under punishment of death:
So, that I may answer your questions in truth and because I would like to better understand which side of the truth I may be on. I ask you to please answer my following focusing question:
If jesus christ is the light and the antichrist the darkness; does that mean that you are a “Gay” muslim?
I am working on your questions and will post soon.
February 5th, 2010 at 17:32
tech
check it out, I don’t think you’ll be dissapointed
February 5th, 2010 at 18:48
Ateist MC: Thanks for the link. Looks like a great site. I’ve add it to my endless bookmarks.
February 5th, 2010 at 18:57
For your amusement:
http://friendsofirony.com/2010/02/04/ironic-photos-it-makes-sense-if-leave-out-logic/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed:+FriendsOfIrony+(Friends+of+Irony)
February 5th, 2010 at 19:07
Oxy-
Snuf-Porn:
“Yahweh spoke to Gad, David’s seer, saying, Go and speak to David, saying, Thus says Yahweh, I offer you three things: choose you one of them, that I may do it to you. So Gad came to David, and said to him, Thus says Yahweh, Take which you will: either three years of famine; or three months to be consumed before your foes, while the sword of your enemies overtakes you; or else three days the sword of Yahweh, even pestilence in the land, and the angel of Yahweh destroying throughout all the borders of Israel. Now therefore consider what answer I shall return to him who sent me. David said to Gad, I am in a great strait: let me fall, I pray, into the hand of Yahweh; for very great are his mercies: and let me not fall into the hand of man. So Yahweh sent a pestilence on Israel; and there fell of Israel seventy thousand men.” (1 Chronicles 21:9-14 WEB)
“At the customary time for offering the evening sacrifice, Elijah the prophet walked up to the altar and prayed, “O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, prove today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant. Prove that I have done all this at your command. O LORD, answer me! Answer me so these people will know that you, O LORD, are God and that you have brought them back to yourself.” Immediately the fire of the LORD flashed down from heaven and burned up the young bull, the wood, the stones, and the dust. It even licked up all the water in the ditch! And when the people saw it, they fell on their faces and cried out, “The LORD is God! The LORD is God!” Then Elijah commanded, “Seize all the prophets of Baal. Don’t let a single one escape!” So the people seized them all, and Elijah took them down to the Kishon Valley and killed them there.” (1 Kings 18:36-40 NLT)
Lots and lots of examples to be had. Ok, not all were goat herders. Some were fishermen. As far as the rest of your list of “ologys” is concerned, I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove. Topology? I don’t dispute that the authors weren’t physically located in the middle east and wrote about some actual landmarks. That says nothing about the claim that Jesus drove demons into pigs. Pigs? Really? You mean to tell me you believe such things? It also doesn’t address whether the authors actually witnessed the events they wrote about. They didn’t. And they had motive to, shall we say, embellish.
One more, for fun-
“If after this you still refuse to listen and still remain hostile toward me, then I will give full vent to my hostility. I will punish you seven times over for your sins. You will eat the flesh of your own sons and daughters. I will destroy your pagan shrines and cut down your incense altars. I will leave your corpses piled up beside your lifeless idols, and I will despise you. I will make your cities desolate and destroy your places of worship, and I will take no pleasure in your offerings of incense. Yes, I myself will devastate your land. Your enemies who come to occupy it will be utterly shocked at the destruction they see. I will scatter you among the nations and attack you with my own weapons. Your land will become desolate, and your cities will lie in ruins. Then at last the land will make up for its missed Sabbath years as it lies desolate during your years of exile in the land of your enemies. Then the land will finally rest and enjoy its Sabbaths. As the land lies in ruins, it will take the rest you never allowed it to take every seventh year while you lived in it.” (Leviticus 26:27-35 NLT) (and I thought I was a tough father!)
Now, I know (or rather I hope) that you don’t take these passages literally. Perhaps you take the stance that these were written later to explain stories of peoples bad behavior as “god’s vengeance”. But MANY people DO read this stuff and use it to justify murder and bigotry. What you get as a result is preachers justifying slavery, witch trials (which still happen in some places), honor killings (like the girl buried alive by her family yesterday) and Prop 8.
I don’t claim to know the mind of a god I have no reason for believing in in the first place. That would be silly. But I do take my understanding of the attributes theists apply to god and extrapolate that if god is what you say she is, then there’s no “free will” and that she doesn’t make mistakes. I know I’m hardly an objective observer but to me, the bible/koran/torah are chock full of giant mistakes. There is only a single reason that anyone believes they are more than mere books – faith that contradicts reason.
February 5th, 2010 at 21:58
The bible is a book with a lot of good teachings in it You have to read all bible not just parts. When you read a regular book you don’t just read the end and disgard it. You have to read it all. The old testament paved the way for new.If you don’t study the bible your understanding of it will certainly be limited.
February 5th, 2010 at 22:01
Solomon = Douche-bag Muslim idiot troll.
Sincerely,
Mohammed. Praise be to me. Get down on your knees and service me, etc, etc.
February 5th, 2010 at 23:00
Tech, Oxy. What I don’t understand is how you can read a chapter that contains the extracts that Capt’n posted and dismiss this as not being literal and then read the next chapter and believe this to be the word of god or something that has valid references to sciences such as anthropology, archaeology, geology and topography. Oxy, this simply isn’t true.
It might mention these things and it’s interesting but it has no reliable value. In the end it comes down to blind faith so does it really matter if you read it?
February 5th, 2010 at 23:21
Tech – I agree that there are morally defensible teachings in the old books. That is beside the point. There are good moral teachings in Harry Potter and Dr. Seuss too. My issue is that calling something “divine” sets the bar somewhat higher than the barbarisms that are all too easy to find advocated in this set.
Out of curiosity, can you give me an example of a biblical teaching that you find of particular value?
February 5th, 2010 at 23:25
Oxy – the Friends of Irony link…priceless. And a bit scary. Sadly, not an uncommon mindset.
February 6th, 2010 at 1:33
The bible is a collection of individual books. Stating that you need to read the whole thing like a normal book is not correct. You can easily read each book, written by different authors on an individual basis.
February 6th, 2010 at 3:57
Oxy, great post! I laughed my ass off!
February 6th, 2010 at 6:06
This saneless (Mommed the Prophet[imposter]) guy is just out of argument.
February 6th, 2010 at 6:07
Nobody have come up with a decent argument to refute my questions & quote & to hell they will.
February 6th, 2010 at 6:15
Atheist MC have give it a try but he absolutely fail.He said “Evolution doesn’t plan anything,Evolution is full of errors. “This shows evolution have failed! Its just a hoax guessed by the Atheists masters. It cannot explain the simplest reasoning of creation yet how could it explain other complex things & happenings that have been going around.
February 6th, 2010 at 19:14
Solomn
It’s me, Mohammed, your master.
Listen, you have YET to ask ONE intelligent question on this bolg. I believe you wouldn’t know an intelligent question if it ever crossed that pathetic excuse for a brain I created for you.
What a complete waste of human tissue you have turned out to be. I’m disappointed in my creation.
Sincerely,
Mohammed. Praise be to me, etc, etc.
February 7th, 2010 at 5:22
Ahhhh….
Some saneless dude babbling that does’nt need to bother.
February 8th, 2010 at 7:07
Learn to spell, moron.