“It is wrong to have faith in faith; it is not a reliable route to truth.”
George Byron
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Kind of dislike that word, ‘truth’. You never know in what sense it is being invoked. I prefer ‘fact’, as in “It is wrong to have faith in faith; it is not a reliable route to fact. Ahhh, that’s better. The situation is worse that Mr. Byron supposes. Faith, in a great many instances, actively works against fact/truth. Faith requires no evidence, in fact scorns it as being needed only by the impure of heart, or whatever. Faith is a mild mental illness: You can still function, but something in your faculties is very definitely broken.
While I agree with the sentiment CZ, your tweak to the quote breaks the connection that the faithful claim to have some monopoly on truth. It is not often that the faithful claim some dominance in fact-finding.
Faith works against both truth and facts – the presuppositions and the mad desire to hold on to the faith in the face of contradictory evidence is but one problem with faith. That you are more faithful the more you can BELIEVE given evidence or lack of evidence illustrates the danger of faith and its opposition to truth/facts.
Truth in religion is subjective. This tenet is most clearly demonstrated by the fact that most of the worlds ‘great’ religions – certainly the monotheistic ones – are or have at one time engaged in squabbles and outright war based on the absolute conviction that their ‘truth’ is the only real one. The very fact that each religion claims to be the only ‘true’ one makes it obvious that all of them are false and manufactured by men. So, in agreeing with the quote it’s not just wrong to have faith in faith it is downright dangerous to the health, wellbeing and long term existence of all of us on this little planet. There endeth the lesson 🙂
When a certain phenomena like earthquakes happens the Atheists are quick to relate it to some natural or science. Did’nt they realize they are explaining the process that follows on the act of God.
I’m with the Cap’n on this one. Truth is an elusive concept. The best we can say about science and rational enquiry as an epistemology is that it is the best way of getting to a model or representation of reality that consistently works and can be relied upon regardless of what people believe. Faith if it even gets close, does so by accident and there is no empirical reason why anyone else should buy into it.
Well good day all.I see things don’t change much on this site same old same old.Since you seem to have all the answers,can someone tell me how a living fish can stay fresh in salt water?
Since you seem to have all the answers,can someone tell me how a living fish can stay fresh in salt water?
Is this one of those Sol type questions that you think needs a metaphysical answer or are you just randomly curious. O.K I’ll bite (unlike the fish). Actually seawater is pretty much isotonic to the bodily fluids of most animals. This is because life evolved in seawater with a degree of dissolved salts. It is actually freshwater fish that have a problem with osmoregulation as they tend to absorb water.
Faith=wishful thinking.
Prolonged faith in defiance of reality=delusional thinking.
Go into any mental institution, and you will find it full of hyper-religious residents. I have always found that to be fascinating. The gravely mentally ill are more religious than the sane.
Thank you Margaret, I enjoy your musings on the delusion of religion. By extension, we have heaven populated with these nuts – being couped up with them is certainly my idea of a fun way to spend a few millennia of my eternal bliss.
Part of the problem is that we have enabled the zealots to exist without them paying the cost of their religion. They drag down innovation and progress and knowledge all the while gorging on the hard-won and ridiculed benefits.
Supposedly we, the atheists, are penalized in our choices against a belief in god if we are wrong. The theists should be penalized for their choice of a belief in god if they are wrong. The reality is we all become microbe-meal(TM) – but our pre-microbe-digested existence is made all the worse by their anti-contributions.
There is no easy solution – where is our prophet John Galt?
But for the Grace of God there go I. One Day every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. I have nothing further to type. May God show you all the truth, just as he has shown me.
Ah yes “faith” vs. “truth” To me, the truth is non varying. Either something is or is not. If a beach ball hits me in the head, then it is true. If someone standing a significant distance away is unsure, then he/she does not yet know the truth. Why? A lack of accurate information, however it does not change the event, or the “truth.”
Truth regarding a god will never be known so long as ALL two million or so of them continue to hide in the shadows. Yup, I said two million. There are those who would argue that 2 million gods have been created by the human race over the past 200,000 years. They all share a common trait, no evidence. So logically there is no truth to any of them. The “truth” will likely be answered by science because it uses the tools and tactics required to get to the bottom things.
Faith? As always, it’s the dirtiest 5-letter word in the English language. Solely responsible for immeasurable pain, suffering and death. “Faith,” should be against the law.
Holy smoke, holysmokes! That was well, well, well said. Faith is about the most abused and misused word there is. There ARE good ways to have faith, like having faith that your brakes are going to work. You have EVIDENCE to justify this faith; your brakes have worked every time BEFORE, so you have good reason to believe they’re going to continue to do so. Further, they were ENGINEERED to work successfully. A lot of planning, measuring & testing went into their construction, and it is all documented. BUT, having faith that a man can walk on water or tear the moon in half without EVER having SEEN ANYONE do it, that’s bad faith. That just makes you gullible, and prone to accept even MORE nonsense without a shred of evidence.
holysmokes – I am in agreement with the sentiment of your discussion re: faith vs. truth when viewed in the classic sense. Sorry to quibble but I do embrace the nonclassical quantum view of the world that provides for probability distributions – and some uncertainity in “truth” as you used the term. Truth and certainty are less true and certain in this sense.
When considering possibility versus probability – strictly speaking I do not believe that it is a valid logical conclusion that a multitude of inconsistent claims regarding truth means that none of them are, objectively, true. Given the premise that something could be true unbeknownst to an observer suggests that one or more of those 2,000,000 deities could be true, we just don’t have the evidence to support believing it to be true.
This is the my understanding for a reason that Richard Dawkins claims to be a 99.99% atheist – as a scientist and rationalist and skeptic, it appears highly unlikely that a god as described by the religions of the world actually exists, but it may be possible (in a literal, theoretical way).
Thank you *all* for a nice ranging conversation today,
Here are 3 links to clinical research that proves the connection to mental illness and hyper-religiosity. The 3rd one, the longest one, makes the connection to child sexual abuse and subsequent mental illness /religious fanaticism. Clergy will say they help soothe and calm the flock with their stories, but hundreds of peer-reviewed studies are readily available to prove religion = pathology. This has been known for some time, even Freud knew approximately 100 years ago that religion is sick. And I kid you not, in the mental institutions, religious visions (hallucinations) and prophecy are spouted in almost every room. Perhaps unfortunate people such as these are the “divine messengers” of the gods in times past?
If Jesus came back today, he would probably be committed.
I wish I knew how to make a “live link” into the comment box, but copy and paste into the browser bar will work.
I’am vomiting hearing the Atheists ranting pointlessly about faith or truth. They’re just ranting words…just words….nothing…have no impact at all on faith or truth. They’re bullshitting something that they themself don’t understand.
I’ll take your word regarding your thoughts on “truth.” I’m afraid that I’m not that complicated, consequently I find the truth to be more black and white. It’s painfully obvious that religions lack “truth” because they lack the data to validate any part of it. I see no gray area there.
Regarding “faith” and my desire to see it made illegal: Sorry, I should have been more specific. I was of course referring to religious faith. It seems that our resident troll thinks our comments are too complicated. I would argue that my comments are extremely basic on the topic so as usual, he has no valid response other than to, “vomit.”
July 30th, 2010 at 2:25
Kind of dislike that word, ‘truth’. You never know in what sense it is being invoked. I prefer ‘fact’, as in “It is wrong to have faith in faith; it is not a reliable route to fact. Ahhh, that’s better. The situation is worse that Mr. Byron supposes. Faith, in a great many instances, actively works against fact/truth. Faith requires no evidence, in fact scorns it as being needed only by the impure of heart, or whatever. Faith is a mild mental illness: You can still function, but something in your faculties is very definitely broken.
July 30th, 2010 at 3:31
While I agree with the sentiment CZ, your tweak to the quote breaks the connection that the faithful claim to have some monopoly on truth. It is not often that the faithful claim some dominance in fact-finding.
Faith works against both truth and facts – the presuppositions and the mad desire to hold on to the faith in the face of contradictory evidence is but one problem with faith. That you are more faithful the more you can BELIEVE given evidence or lack of evidence illustrates the danger of faith and its opposition to truth/facts.
YSG
July 30th, 2010 at 4:15
Truth in religion is subjective. This tenet is most clearly demonstrated by the fact that most of the worlds ‘great’ religions – certainly the monotheistic ones – are or have at one time engaged in squabbles and outright war based on the absolute conviction that their ‘truth’ is the only real one. The very fact that each religion claims to be the only ‘true’ one makes it obvious that all of them are false and manufactured by men. So, in agreeing with the quote it’s not just wrong to have faith in faith it is downright dangerous to the health, wellbeing and long term existence of all of us on this little planet. There endeth the lesson 🙂
July 30th, 2010 at 5:18
I submit as evidence the post from the Trollpidgeon from yesterday in response to my questions to him on apostasy and conversion to islam
‘Its most welcomed coz its the true religion. Other religions are fake.The trusts or contract outside Islam is not accounted for.’
July 30th, 2010 at 9:39
When a certain phenomena like earthquakes happens the Atheists are quick to relate it to some natural or science. Did’nt they realize they are explaining the process that follows on the act of God.
July 30th, 2010 at 9:48
Again, sol, you make a statement without any justification. How do you know earthquakes are an act of god?
Without justification it sounds like feeble guesswork. Science uses measurements, observations, facts and evidence. It is not guesswork.
Just because you fervently believe something is true does not make it true young boy.
July 30th, 2010 at 10:21
I’m with the Cap’n on this one. Truth is an elusive concept. The best we can say about science and rational enquiry as an epistemology is that it is the best way of getting to a model or representation of reality that consistently works and can be relied upon regardless of what people believe. Faith if it even gets close, does so by accident and there is no empirical reason why anyone else should buy into it.
July 30th, 2010 at 10:42
Well good day all.I see things don’t change much on this site same old same old.Since you seem to have all the answers,can someone tell me how a living fish can stay fresh in salt water?
July 30th, 2010 at 10:44
Hypatia,
Not only earthquake an act of God. Everything that happens is an act of God. No justification is neccesary. Is that understood!!
July 30th, 2010 at 11:56
Is this one of those Sol type questions that you think needs a metaphysical answer or are you just randomly curious. O.K I’ll bite (unlike the fish). Actually seawater is pretty much isotonic to the bodily fluids of most animals. This is because life evolved in seawater with a degree of dissolved salts. It is actually freshwater fish that have a problem with osmoregulation as they tend to absorb water.
July 30th, 2010 at 13:14
“A plea to faith is the admission of defeat. It’s the acknowledging that their beliefs are based upon unsubstantiated twaddle.” – Ryedo 🙂
July 30th, 2010 at 14:10
sol:
Why not? You’re being STUPID again – I hope when you’ve grown and left school you’ll be able to give us an intelligent argument but I doubt it.
July 30th, 2010 at 14:46
Faith=wishful thinking.
Prolonged faith in defiance of reality=delusional thinking.
Go into any mental institution, and you will find it full of hyper-religious residents. I have always found that to be fascinating. The gravely mentally ill are more religious than the sane.
July 30th, 2010 at 15:48
Thank you Margaret, I enjoy your musings on the delusion of religion. By extension, we have heaven populated with these nuts – being couped up with them is certainly my idea of a fun way to spend a few millennia of my eternal bliss.
Part of the problem is that we have enabled the zealots to exist without them paying the cost of their religion. They drag down innovation and progress and knowledge all the while gorging on the hard-won and ridiculed benefits.
Supposedly we, the atheists, are penalized in our choices against a belief in god if we are wrong. The theists should be penalized for their choice of a belief in god if they are wrong. The reality is we all become microbe-meal(TM) – but our pre-microbe-digested existence is made all the worse by their anti-contributions.
There is no easy solution – where is our prophet John Galt?
YSG
July 30th, 2010 at 15:52
Hypatia,
You said I have to justify. That means I have to justify every events that happens. Are you bat shit crazy??
July 30th, 2010 at 16:38
But for the Grace of God there go I. One Day every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. I have nothing further to type. May God show you all the truth, just as he has shown me.
July 30th, 2010 at 16:53
Nurse taking you for your electroshock treatments, tech?
July 30th, 2010 at 18:20
Thanks for another chuckle Margaret. The truth, or electroconvulsive therapy, will set you FREE!!!!
Bow down before your god, the Lord André-Marie Ampère!
YSG
July 30th, 2010 at 18:55
Ah yes “faith” vs. “truth” To me, the truth is non varying. Either something is or is not. If a beach ball hits me in the head, then it is true. If someone standing a significant distance away is unsure, then he/she does not yet know the truth. Why? A lack of accurate information, however it does not change the event, or the “truth.”
Truth regarding a god will never be known so long as ALL two million or so of them continue to hide in the shadows. Yup, I said two million. There are those who would argue that 2 million gods have been created by the human race over the past 200,000 years. They all share a common trait, no evidence. So logically there is no truth to any of them. The “truth” will likely be answered by science because it uses the tools and tactics required to get to the bottom things.
Faith? As always, it’s the dirtiest 5-letter word in the English language. Solely responsible for immeasurable pain, suffering and death. “Faith,” should be against the law.
July 30th, 2010 at 19:14
Holy smoke, holysmokes! That was well, well, well said. Faith is about the most abused and misused word there is. There ARE good ways to have faith, like having faith that your brakes are going to work. You have EVIDENCE to justify this faith; your brakes have worked every time BEFORE, so you have good reason to believe they’re going to continue to do so. Further, they were ENGINEERED to work successfully. A lot of planning, measuring & testing went into their construction, and it is all documented. BUT, having faith that a man can walk on water or tear the moon in half without EVER having SEEN ANYONE do it, that’s bad faith. That just makes you gullible, and prone to accept even MORE nonsense without a shred of evidence.
July 30th, 2010 at 21:17
holysmokes – I am in agreement with the sentiment of your discussion re: faith vs. truth when viewed in the classic sense. Sorry to quibble but I do embrace the nonclassical quantum view of the world that provides for probability distributions – and some uncertainity in “truth” as you used the term. Truth and certainty are less true and certain in this sense.
When considering possibility versus probability – strictly speaking I do not believe that it is a valid logical conclusion that a multitude of inconsistent claims regarding truth means that none of them are, objectively, true. Given the premise that something could be true unbeknownst to an observer suggests that one or more of those 2,000,000 deities could be true, we just don’t have the evidence to support believing it to be true.
This is the my understanding for a reason that Richard Dawkins claims to be a 99.99% atheist – as a scientist and rationalist and skeptic, it appears highly unlikely that a god as described by the religions of the world actually exists, but it may be possible (in a literal, theoretical way).
Thank you *all* for a nice ranging conversation today,
YSG
July 30th, 2010 at 22:07
http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0165178101003109
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/412807_2
http://eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/custom/portlets/recordDetails/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=EJ564932&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=EJ564932
Here are 3 links to clinical research that proves the connection to mental illness and hyper-religiosity. The 3rd one, the longest one, makes the connection to child sexual abuse and subsequent mental illness /religious fanaticism. Clergy will say they help soothe and calm the flock with their stories, but hundreds of peer-reviewed studies are readily available to prove religion = pathology. This has been known for some time, even Freud knew approximately 100 years ago that religion is sick. And I kid you not, in the mental institutions, religious visions (hallucinations) and prophecy are spouted in almost every room. Perhaps unfortunate people such as these are the “divine messengers” of the gods in times past?
If Jesus came back today, he would probably be committed.
I wish I knew how to make a “live link” into the comment box, but copy and paste into the browser bar will work.
July 30th, 2010 at 22:08
Thank you, Admin, the link went live when I posted it.
July 31st, 2010 at 0:07
Margaret,
The site you posted is a on sided affair. It could be questioned, probed and challenged. Just another cheap stuffs propagated by condemn individuals.
July 31st, 2010 at 0:08
tech,
Jesus is Human, not God. You’ve been tricked.
July 31st, 2010 at 0:12
I’am vomiting hearing the Atheists ranting pointlessly about faith or truth. They’re just ranting words…just words….nothing…have no impact at all on faith or truth. They’re bullshitting something that they themself don’t understand.
July 31st, 2010 at 0:18
Sorry…’on sided affair’….should be ‘one sided affair’.
July 31st, 2010 at 0:45
YSG,
I’ll take your word regarding your thoughts on “truth.” I’m afraid that I’m not that complicated, consequently I find the truth to be more black and white. It’s painfully obvious that religions lack “truth” because they lack the data to validate any part of it. I see no gray area there.
Regarding “faith” and my desire to see it made illegal: Sorry, I should have been more specific. I was of course referring to religious faith. It seems that our resident troll thinks our comments are too complicated. I would argue that my comments are extremely basic on the topic so as usual, he has no valid response other than to, “vomit.”